3rd Model 44spl Transitional

[nedlate]

I hope I get all the terminology right! I was at the LGS today and looked at a 44 Special with target sights. The front sight-Patridge-was very tall, the gun had either a 4" or 5" barrel. It looked like 4" but I'll have to recheck. Single line address, Serial #S69XXX. Pachmayer grips. Cylinder had quite a bit of side to side play, and the worst part the previous owner had shaved the trigger guard down quite a bit on the right side. Finish might have been about 75% with out the trigger guard problem. I just looked in the SCSW book and see this might be an uncommon gun? They are asking $1150 and are holding it for me to look at again. What do you guys think? Does anyone have a picture I could look at?!
Thanks
Ed

 

[1950jcb]

.44

Ed-
The more important question would be "Do YOU have any pictures WE could look at?"
Jim

 

[handejector]

I would suspect it is not factory as you see it, but still may be a bargain.
Pics or better description.
I assume you mean S 69XXX ?
Letters matter.

 

[nedlate]

I would suspect it is not factory as you see it, but still may be a bargain.
Pics or better description.
I assume you mean S 69XXX ?
Letters matter.

I fixed the serial number. Thanks. I wondered about the factory original also. The gun is from an estate, almost all of the guns were altered in some way. I did not pull the grips but the serial numbers on the cylinder and barrel matched. The barrel did not appear to be cut, it had the patent marking and date on the top. I will look at it tomorrow and see about some pictures. I have been wrong about things before! Thanks for the replies.
Ed

 

[bmg60]

hi
if it is a round barrel with out a rib it is not a Transition Target.
sounds like a fixed sight gun modified to Target.
Only pictures will tell
Jim

 

[nedlate]

hi
if it is a round barrel with out a rib it is not a Transition Target.
sounds like a fixed sight gun modified to Target.
Only pictures will tell
Jim

"Do YOU have any pictures WE could look at?"

Thanks for the replies. I had thought a transitional would have an earlier barrel, one line address and long throw hammer. It does have the round barrel with no rib. I will check it tomorrow and post the information.

Ed

 

[bmg60]

hi
here is a picture of my 44 Transition Target. all of the ones we have seen
were all made in the S71XXX serial number range,
this is not a good picture of mine. but you will get the idea.
Also they were all 6 1.2 inch barrels.
Jim

 

[nedlate]

Thanks Jim. I appreciate the information. I always jump the gun! I'll see if I can get some pictures tomorrow. Looks like this must have been a fixed sight gun as stated by everyone. Maybe they will let me use a screwdriver on it to check it out!
Ed

 

[Hondo44]

Notice the EXACT position of the rear sight in Jim's photo. This will be your biggest clue if it was changed to a target model from a fixed sight gun.

Also look at the size of the logo on Jim's gun which is on the right side. If the gun you saw has a smaller logo or it's on the left side, that would also be a clue that it might have been converted to a target model.

 

[rburg]

hi

Also they were all 6 1.2 inch barrels.

Not so fast on that part. I've got S71680 and its got a 4" barrel. Not nearly as nice as your long barrel gun, but clearly original. Right after I bought mine maybe 10 or so years ago, I was wanderling aimlessly around the Louisville show and right in front of me, under glass, was another. Foolishly I figured I had one and didn't need another, so I walked on. I should have at least looked at the serial #.

One of the interesting things about odd S&W Transition guns is the number of really interesting variants that seem to appear in the S71,000 group. Guess they had a bunch of frames and they finished them as limited production guns.

 

[bmg60]

Hi
Dick I forgot about your 4 inch I have it in my data base. But I never got the serial number of the other gun you saw.
Thanks for correcting me. the important part of this thread is if it is a round barrel it is not a Transition target.
But I think by the serial number it is a fixed sight Transition gun .
I would bet it is a 5 inch as that was the most common barrel length
made in the 1946 to 1949 long action 44,s. there were around 1300 made with the fixed sights. The 4 inch and the 6 1/2 inch were the least production, making up about a 1/3 of the total made.
By the way Dick I still have the 6 1/2 gun I got from you but it has a
brother with it now one serial number after the one I got from you.
I hope all this helps.
Jim Fisher

 

[rburg]

Hi
By the way Dick I still have the 6 1/2 gun I got from you but it has a
brother with it now one serial number after the one I got from you.

That sure feels good when you find the next or prior number gun. I'm guessing there are very few people who will pay more for a consecutive set, but those of us who somehow manage to put them together feel its a great victory. I spent years looking for a set of Magnums. Then out of the blue one day a friend called and asked if I wanted another one of those guns I kept buying. I was a little cash-short at the time and wasn't much interested, but to be polite and keep my network of searchers active, I asked him what the registration number was. Yep, It made a set and had to come live with me. Its an ugly duckling, but its mine and it sleeps with its next number pal.

 

[NavyFrank]

.44 Hand Ejector with small logo

I recently purchased a pre-24 6 1/2 inch barrel .44 Special Target with a bright blue finish and smooth Target Stocks .Serial number # S 97893. All I can say is they don't make them like that anymore. One problem is the frame has the small logo on the left side. All numbers match. I was under the impression that these should have the large logo on the right side. Roy states date shipped as Feb 55. Was this a leftover frame??

Frank Ruple
SWCA # 2087

 

[rburg]

I'm going to guess there is no rhyme or reason to the placement of the logo. There are people who study it and try to draw conclusions, but then they always get tripped up by the occasional oddity. For a long time there were those who would suggest they were destined for engraving and the logo went on the wrong/left side of the frame. Except there is no "correct/right" side. When we're dealing with guns from the early postwar period, they are what they are. These days we're seeing so few we just keep trading back and forth the ones we do have. There are times when we feel we should have given the guns names, and there are people who have had a gun pass through their hands multiple times.

When I see a great old gun, the placement of the logo means nothing to me. I don't even look at it, being more interested in the chances it was refinished, the serial number for a time estimate, and of course the little things like barrel length. To be honest, I wouldn't ask $10 more or less for the logo, nor would I pay it. To me its kind of a red herring.

Of course that's just my point of view, and what do I know.

 

[nedlate]

Ok, I did get some pictures. Jim-you are correct it is the 5" barrel. I see it has a rework mark and date. The machining on the rear sight sight slot looks pretty good. Numbers match on barrel, cylinder and frame. Don't forget the shaved trigger guard. It is fun to see all the conversations that start with a thread! Give me your opinions on buying it! Oh shoot-I see I have no pictures of the whole gun.
Thanks
Ed

 

[Hondo44]

I recently purchased a pre-24 6 1/2 inch barrel .44 Special Target with a bright blue finish and smooth Target Stocks .Serial number # S 97893. All I can say is they don't make them like that anymore. One problem is the frame has the small logo on the left side. All numbers match. I was under the impression that these should have the large logo on the right side. Roy states date shipped as Feb 55. Was this a leftover frame??

Frank Ruple
SWCA # 2087

That seems to be a low number for that shipping date compared to mine. There was no real sequence when assembling Smiths, so probably an earlier frame assembled/shipped further out of sequence than most.

 

[Hondo44]

Ok, I did get some pictures. Jim-you are correct it is the 5" barrel. I see it has a rework mark and date. The machining on the rear sight sight slot looks pretty good. Numbers match on barrel, cylinder and frame. Don't forget the shaved trigger guard. It is fun to see all the conversations that start with a thread! Give me your opinions on buying it! Oh shoot-I see I have no pictures of the whole gun.
Thanks
Ed

Hi Ed,

Great job on those photos! There must be a star on the butt. It certainly went back to Smith for something. The sight channel looks very well done. However, it is located 1/16" to 1/8" farther forward when compared to Jim's gun above. The other dead-give-away is that there are no grooves in the sight channel ahead of the sight tang which factory target guns have and like he said, with the round 5" barrel had to have started life as a 44 Military fixed sight gun.

But I still like it and would negotiate to buy it if I had found it.

 

[nedlate]

Hi Ed,

Great job on those photos! There must be a star on the butt. It certainly went back to Smith for something. The sight channel looks very well done. However, it is located 1/16" to 1/8" farther forward when compared to Jim's gun above. The other dead-give-away is that there are no grooves in the sight channel ahead of the sight tang which factory target guns have and like he said, with the round 5" barrel had to have started life as a 44 Military fixed sight gun.

But I still like it and would negotiate to buy it if I had found it.

Thanks for the reply. What do you think of the front sight? Is that something S&W would sell as a replacement at that time? Is there any way to tell if the rear sight is a factory rework?
Thanks
Ed

 

[nedlate]

Them ol fix sighted models get targeted every now and again....

Love those worn old grips on your gun!
Ed

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for the reply. What do you think of the front sight? Is that something S&W would sell as a replacement at that time? Is there any way to tell if the rear sight is a factory rework?
Thanks
Ed

Ed,

Did you decide to get the gun? Is there a star on the butt in front of the serial #? Smith would often put sights on fixed sight guns for customers in those days. And I would say that it's likely the factory did the work since it has a rework date and probably has a star.

With the old records at Smith Roy Jinks would need a name to look up the work order for your gun. However, the S&W Archives project is making progress and may have the records computerized for your gun. If so, it can be looked up by the work order date. Check with Roy.

The front sight is a style I've seen before. But it's not a factory sight. I think it's an after market sight blade used when the higher post war Micro click sights were used on round barrel guns to get the front sight height needed. Smith would install custom sight blades if requested. Is there a name on the front blade? It might have to be pulled to see it.

 

[rburg]

Looking at the photos, I'm not seeing grooves on the grip frame. That's a dead giveaway that the gun shipped as a fixed sight gun, not target. And all that means almost nothing depending on your desired use for the gun. Its still a great old gun that you won't find another anywhere near it.

You can spend a lot of time at gun shows, but your chances of even seeing another early postwar 44 are slim to none at all. And there are some folks posting to this thread who might get there before you. And if we did, that gun would be gone. We're not really all that mean, we're just decisive buyers.

 

[singleshot1]

Ed, you didn't tell me about that one!! That is one neat old 44. It would go very well with your other one. We were in town today, but I just wasn't up checking out the local LGS. If you get it,hint, hint, let me know. I'll be in town thursday night for a sleep study, and I'll stop by friday morning. Dave

 

[nedlate]

You can spend a lot of time at gun shows, but your chances of even seeing another early postwar 44 are slim to none at all. And there are some folks posting to this thread who might get there before you. And if we did, that gun would be gone. We're not really all that mean, we're just decisive buyers.

Thanks for the advice Dick, the thought did enter my mind about it being gone with more decisive buyers from the Forum! There is no rework star on the butt, I was just looking at the diamond mark on the butt.

Ed

 

[nedlate]

Ed, you didn't tell me about that one!! That is one neat old 44. It would go very well with your other one. We were in town today, but I just wasn't up checking out the local LGS. If you get it,hint, hint, let me know. I'll be in town thursday night for a sleep study, and I'll stop by friday morning. Dave

Dave-With you being one of the decisive buyer in the area I knew better than to tell you!! I just spotted the gun yesterday. I have too much going on to go to the Whitebird show this weekend. Like pulling apart the son's car engine! Let me know if you go. Hopefully I will see you Friday. I have an early appointment at Moscow on Friday though.
Later
Ed

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for the advice Dick, the thought did enter my mind about it being gone with more decisive buyers from the Forum! There is no rework star on the butt, I was just looking at the diamond mark on the butt.

Ed

Ed,
I saw that. A diamond on a major gun part after going back to the factory usually means a replaced part, but on the frame? The star transitioned to different marks c. late 50's. And since your date is 9 56, the star could have been replaced by the diamond. I have an M frame refinished by the factory in 4.43 that has both the star and the diamond

I guess anyone could have stamped a date on the side of the grip frame in the correct location. Now that I re-look at the date stamping, I remember the factory date stamp usually (and I emphasize usually) has a period between the month and the year. The 4 stamped on left side like yours means it was to be assembled as a 44.

 

[Hondo44]

Ed,

I knew I had seen a front sight like yours installed at the factory and I finally found it. Notice in text below it was lettered and Roy believs the factory did the target sights. See also that the rear of the rear sight over the hammer is positioned farther forward just as yours is!

It's from this thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/68475-model-1917-target-45-colt.html
"Based on a star on the butt next to the serial number and a 7.49 date on the left side of the frame under the grip, Roy believes the revolver was returned to the factory and reworked to a target model in .45 Colt caliber. The factory "done good" because it shoots really sweet."

 

[nedlate]

Hondo44-PM sent
Ed

 

[nedlate]

Well thanks everyone for the encouragement-I did bring home the 44spl today! Now to clean it up and take it out shooting.
Ed

 

[Hondo44]

If you buy them and change your mind, you can always resell. But if you don't buy them and change your mind, you can't "re-buy" them!

 

[rboineau]

With a butchered trigger guard it is maybe a $500 gun.