.44 Special vs. .45, etc.

[Texas Star]

Assume for the moment that you were going to be in a jungle region where you might encounter hostile natives, dangerous wild cats, possible dangerous canids (hyenas, maybe dholes in India or African wild dogs.) Venomous or constrictor snakes and crocoodiles or caimans might be a menace.

The setting might include Brazil, India, or Kenya. The time is the mid to late 1920's. (This is for a fan fiction that I may write.)

You're deciding which N-frame revolver to carry. Would you choose a Second Model or Third Model .44 Special, a .44-40, or order in .45 Colt?

Do you think the M-1917 .45 is better? What real world difference is there in factory loads between the .45 auto round and the heavier lead .44 Special, which was slower?

I'm leaning toward the M-1917, because its jacketed bullets might penetrate better than .44 Special. And then, .45 Auto Rim ammo with FMJ bullets could avoid the nuisance of fooling with half moon clips.

Have any of you shot a coyote or even jackrabbits with such factory ammo? I've read that results can be disappointing, with flatpointed bullets much more effective. But those had to be handloaded, and Elmer Keith was just beginning to publish his results with handloads.

But one character might recall the wadcutter bullets in .455 and have a mould made to cast them in .44 caliber.

Seriously, today, would you trust factory loads in .44 Spcl.? I think the Federal 200 grain lead HPs might suffice. Barrel length on these guns would be from five to 6.5 inches, not modern items with three-inch barrels, which I personally think are caliber-inappropriate.

 

[venomballistics]

44 special versus 45 colt .. take the long colt .. 44 special versus 45 auto .. flip a coin. they run pretty close to eachother
44-40 ... good caliber but your brass tends to be thin walled which may come into play in a hostile environment. 44 magnum is sorta its evolutionary replacement and trumps all ... thats what I'd pack

 

[feralmerril]

All listed can do the job with the right loads. The biggest factor would be ammo availability. I have multiables of all listed except .44-40, actualy I have one of them too in the comemmerative 544 wagon trail but dont shoot it.

 

[Ron H.]

Assume for the moment that you were going to be in a jungle region where you might encounter hostile natives, dangerous wild cats, possible dangerous canids (hyenas, maybe dholes in India or African wild dogs.) Venomous or constrictor snakes and crocoodiles or caimans might be a menace.

The setting might include Brazil, India, or Kenya. The time is the mid to late 1920's. (This is for a fan fiction that I may write.)

You're deciding which N-frame revolver to carry. Would you choose a Second Model or Third Model .44 Special, a .44-40, or order in .45 Colt?

Do you think the M-1917 .45 is better? What real world difference is there in factory loads between the .45 auto round and the heavier lead .44 Special, which was slower?

I'm leaning toward the M-1917, because its jacketed bullets might penetrate better than .44 Special. And then, .45 Auto Rim ammo with FMJ bullets could avoid the nuisance of fooling with half moon clips.

Have any of you shot a coyote or even jackrabbits with such factory ammo? I've read that results can be disappointing, with flatpointed bullets much more effective. But those had to be handloaded, and Elmer Keith was just beginning to publish his results with handloads.

But one character might recall the wadcutter bullets in .455 and have a mould made to cast them in .44 caliber.

Seriously, today, would you trust factory loads in .44 Spcl.? I think the Federal 200 grain lead HPs might suffice. Barrel length on these guns would be from five to 6.5 inches, not modern items with three-inch barrels, which I personally think are caliber-inappropriate.

Sir, it really depends on the character. A gun-savvy fella who wanted the most powerful handgun available at that time probably would go for the .45 Colt. A character who's short of money or maybe a WWI veteran might have a surplus (or "liberated") military pistol in .45 ACP or .455. The .44 special, I dunno. Factory loads of that time were weak, and hot .44 handloads didn't seem to be common knowledge until much later. Elmer Keith didn't start experimenting with hot .44s until the mid-'20s, and even then, he wasn't widely known yet--he didn't publish his first book until 1936.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Texas Star]

44 special versus 45 colt .. take the long colt .. 44 special versus 45 auto .. flip a coin. they run pretty close to eachother
44-40 ... good caliber but your brass tends to be thin walled which may come into play in a hostile environment. 44 magnum is sorta its evolutionary replacement and trumps all ... thats what I'd pack

Venom--

Keep in mind the time factor. The .44 Magnum didn't appear until 1956!

 

[Texas Star]

Sir, it really depends on the character. A gun-savvy fella who wanted the most powerful handgun available at that time probably would go for the .45 Colt. A character who's short of money or maybe a WWI veteran might have a surplus (or "liberated") military pistol in .45 ACP or .455. The .44 special, I dunno. Factory loads of that time were weak, and hot .44 handloads didn't seem to be common knowledge until much later. Elmer Keith didn't start experimenting with hot .44s until the mid-'20s, and even then, he wasn't widely known yet--he didn't publish his first book until 1936.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

Ron-

Your points, as usual, were well made. I wonder about the avaiibility of .44 Special outside the USA, although ammo could be brought in with the gun. Sasha Siemel told us that S&W .44's were then popular in Brazil, and he had some. But he didn't say WHICH .44! Nor do I recall if he specifically said that he'd killed a jaguar with his revolvers. He usually used a Winchester M-92 carbine or a heavy spear. And one photo shows him with a German-made "drilling"!

Keith wouldn't have had to be a factor, inasmuch as one character is a British lord who is a gun enthusiast and famous adventurer and hunter, Lord John Roxton, VC, the XVIIIth Earl of Avebury. He'd have unlimited funds and curiosity if the .455 Manstopper bullets could be adapted to other calibers. He sometimes wore a brace of nickled Webley MK VI revolvers on the TV show on which the fan fics are based. Otherwise, he had a Colt M-1911 .45. His pal Prof. George Challenger chose a Colt SAA .45, probably for power, simplicity and easy repairs under primitive conditions.

Challenger was a famous scientist who might well be intrigued with bullet shapes, in part to interest the War Office in better handgun ammo. He sold inventions, after all.

Come to think of it, I already have Roxton making improved .38 Special ammo for M&P revolvers carried by his wife Marguerite and their friends Finn Challenger and Veronica Malone. Veronica shot a renegade Kikuyu warrior with one of those lead HP bullets in another story.

The TV show is, "Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's the Lost World", BTW. Many of you probably saw some episodes when it was popular. Some of my fics take place after they've left the Plateau. Other guns would be available.

Also, I just found myself wondering what I'd choose in their boots. Especially if limited to factory ammo then.

I do know that .44-40 and .45 Colt ammo were available in British colonies then. Never seen a British comment on .44 Special.

 

[BaldEagle1313]

If you are set on an N-Frame, I think the most reasonable would be milsurp Model 1917 .45 ACP.

But realistically, a milsurp Colt .45 would be more likely. There were a lot more of them available. But taking into consideration the type of wild animals listed, maybe even a Colt SAA .45 for its greater stopping power, despite its vastly slower reloading time.

 

[Texas Star]

If you are set on an N-Frame, I think the most reasonable would be milsurp Model 1917 .45 ACP.

But realistically, a milsurp Colt .45 would be more likely. There were a lot more of them available. But taking into consideration the type of wild animals listed, maybe even a Colt SAA .45 for its greater stopping power, despite its vastly slower reloading time.

Yeah, or a Colt New Service .45. But I have Colt's cylinder timing problems with their DA revolvers in mind. I had one made in the 1930's that was near new and ran fine. It'd shoot alongside a M-29 .44 Magnum, which impressed me. Handled recoil better than S&W's made before Magna grips appeared, too. But I could have Lord Roxton carve ivory or rosewood grips that amounted to Magnas. In fact, he might write to S&W, suggesting that they offer similar grips.

I should probably quit fantasizing about this and go get groceries...

Oh: Colt published a ittle book in the 1930's, in which customers described their experiences in using Colts afield. One British lady in India killed a sloth bear with a New Service .45. And a couple of men told how they shot black bears with a .44/40 and a Govt. Model .45.

 

[mc5aw]

Based on Lord John's pedigree, Webleys sound exactly right ... the 1911 seems too American for British aristocracy and military.

 

[jag312]

I would choose either a S&W or Colt revolver in .44-40 to go with my Winchester or Marilin rifle in .44-40. The ammunition was available all over the world.

 

[A10]

I'd go with a WWI veteran's second model hand ejector, converted from .455 to .45 colt for increased power. It could also be machined to take half moon clips and .45 acp, I think......

 

[cowart]

In the early 60′s, J.D. Jones and Lee Jurras developed the first true high-performance handgun ammunition for revolvers and auto-pistols which was marketed as Super Vel Ammunition. The basics of this ammunition are used by every manufacturer in the world that manufactures high performance handgun ammo today.

So, for your pre-WWII time frame, you can pretty much forget any kind of specialized high performance handgun ammo. Also, its my impression that reloading of ammo was no where near as common then as it is now.

 

[OFT II]

For India or Kenya the 455 would be more commonly available. In Brazil it would not. I don't think that the 45 AR was ever loaded FMJ. My personal choice would be either a 44 Special or a 45 Colt. And I would hope to have a Lyman nutcracker with dies to reload with.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

I would probably chose a Colt New Service AND a Winchester M1892 chambered in 44-40.

 

[mtgianni]

For factory loads in the 20's I would probably go with the 45. If the character was a devoted disciple of Saint Elmer then go with the 44.

 

[therevjay]

Given time period and locations I'd think .45 ACP for ammo avalability. And a M1917 Colt or S&W, for the same reason. (lots of them around at reasonable prices) Also quick reloads w/moon or half moon clips.

Second choice, Colt SAA / .45 Colt. 44/40? good cal. But would ammo be that common in those areas?

 

[Alpo]

Just had to check the SCSW to make sure it was available. 44HE, either a triple lock or a second model, in 38/40. This to go with my Winchester 1892 SRC, also in 38/40.

You say your guy is gun-savvy. Ain't nobody gun-savvy going into the jungle with just a pistol. You say he's rich. That would allow him to get the best. 38/40 was rare, in N frames, but it was available. 5" barrels were also rare, but I bet that in 1922, if I called up S&W and told them to make me a 5" triplelock in 38 WCF, silver plated with carved ivory grips and a gold bead Patridge front sight, and here's the check, I'm pretty sure they'd make it. It's amazing what you can get done if you have money.

Many of the more knowledgeable gun folk in the old west preferred the 38/40 because it "hit harder". This would be my reason for choosing it over the 44/40.

It is true that the 45 Colt was a more powerful round, but at the time there was no rifle chambered for it. The ability to shoot the same ammo in rifle and pistol is a plus, on a trek, which means either 32/20, 38/40 or 44/40.

I would have a real rifle, but that would be being carried by one of my "boys". That might be a large-bore lever, on the order of TR's "big medicine", or it might be a 500 or larger Nitro double. Depends on the jungle. But that little Winchester would be my constant companion.

 

[jlrhiner]

In the scenario you described, either the .45 long colt in the S&W 1917 or the .455 Webley. I don't believe anything else would be plausible. There would have been tons of Enfields and Webleys prior to WWII, semi autos after. In all my reading on Africa, I only recall two instances where details were given on handguns. Sam Baker mentions carrying a "Colt's revolver" and time wise, the latest it could have been was a Mdl 1860. And Mienertzhagen talks of carrying a 38/55 Enfield during his early exploits (and incidentally, slipping a .25 auto into his pocket for a meeting with Hitler).

 

[pilgrim6a]

I'm not sure about Brazil. But in my travels anywhere south of the Rio Grande, the powers that be don't look kindly on military cals. .45 ACP and some places question .45 Colt! .44 special or .44/40 would be your best bet.

 

[seagill]

Why would you want to shoot a hyena? They're so cute and cuddly.

 

[willy]

John Taylor (BIG GAME HUNTER/ IVORY POACHER!) used a 455 webly in 1920's -1930's Africa.
He tells about killing a lion with his Webly.
He also recommends a handgun for Africa to be at least a 38 revolver or 38 colt auto.
But no matter what caliber, he insists on a full metal jacket on any round that may be needed to stop a lion from eating you.

 

[Texas Star]

I would probably chose a Colt New Service AND a Winchester M1892 chambered in 44-40.

In fact, I did arm the character Finn with a M-92 and a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer to replace the crossbow that she had on the show, but her handgun is a M&P .38 with five-inch barrel. In the stories, Finn got these from other expeditions that had perished like that in the TV episode, "Suspicion."

In later fics, set off of that strange Plateau, she often uses a .275 Rigby for her light rifle and a H&H .375 or a .450/.400 for elephant, occasionally Cape buffalo.

I based the Winchester .44 and the Mannlicher on what I knew actual expeditions often took in those days, and on Siemel's comments on how popular the M-92 was. Rossi still makes a copy of it there. We know the Challenger Expedition found tha remote plateau with the dinosaurs, etc. in Brazil because the canoes went upriver from Manaus in the two-part pilot show. And I thought those guns would go well with Finn, a cute blonde.

Most of the guns carried by the others were typical of those favored by the British gentry, although I had Ned Malone, a famous author by the later fics, use a Griffin & Howe .30/06 on a Springfield action and a .270 Winchester M-54. He was American. Also, in a safari story, Finn's secretary, Susan Wilson, had a 20 gauge Remington pump shotgun, with which she killed a hyena in her tent, and shot some chimpanzees that had taken to attacking people. She found slugs very effective on them, and Marguerite (by then Lady Roxton, the Countess of Avebury) dropped one chimp with 12 gauge Purdey. She was loaded with birdshot because the stony hill they were on looked, "snaky" to her. The chimp was so close that the shot didn't have time to sepaate much and hit the ape in a virtually solid mass.

Surplus guns being cheap wasn't a factor for these people. They were discerning and well-to-do, Finn having married Challenger in the stories after his wife died. She became an author of adventure books and a pioneer wildlife photographer and a famous huntress/adventurer. Her secretary, Susan, had been a bank clerk, and bought har own revolver, a .303 sporter from BSA, and the Remington shotgun, but Lord Roxton and the Challengers bought her a .375 H&H, Lady Roxton having taken a liking to young Susan. (Susan heroine worships Finn, who is the virtual little sister and primary hunting partner of Lord John Roxton in my stories.)

Someone mentioned that many Latin Amercan countries ban miitary calibers. I thought of that, but don't know when it began, so ignored it. I think Brazil had pretty lax gun laws until at least the 1950's. None of my fics is dated beyond 1944, and all the others are from 1922-1929.

I can well believe that Baker, as one member posted above, had Colt's revolvers. They were very popular among British adventurers in those days.

I guess that if I write another story in which different guns appear, Second Model .44 Special or .45 Colt guns may be the answer. I had one safari fic no longer on the Net where the District Commissiner in Kenya used his S&W .455 from WW I and a white hunter had a Colt New Service .45 Colt. A gentleman farmer wore a Webley-Wilkinson, Model of 1911.

These fics are fun to write, and if the urge is overpowering, I may write another. But the show hasn't been on in several years, and the fan base is waning. Still, it's fun to fantasize about the guns and other gear. (I have them use Zeiss binoculars, as many famous expeditions really did.)

 

[Texas Star]

John Taylor (BIG GAME HUNTER/ IVORY POACHER!) used a 455 webly in 1920's -1930's Africa.
He tells about killing a lion with his Webly.
He also recommends a handgun for Africa to be at least a 38 revolver or 38 colt auto.
But no matter what caliber, he insists on a full metal jacket on any round that may be needed to stop a lion from eating you.

I read that book, but he remarked also that until after WW II, FMJ bullets weren't available for the .455. Keith mentioned in, "Sixguns" that the .45 Colt penetrated well even with lead bullets, though.

I know an author named Suzanne Arruda, who has writen a good series of novels about an American adventuress who went to colonial Kenya after serving with an ambulance corps in the war. She carries a Winchester M-95, and I know the caliber, because I discused Jade's gun with Mrs. Arruda at a book signing. She was kind enough to credit me for providing gun advice in the acknowledgements in one book of the series. I've just gone blank on the caliber, but recall suggesting .303 because the ammo would be easily available in Nairobi. Jade does not carry a pistol, although she is handy with a hunting knife made for her by the foreman of her father's ranch back in New Mexico.

And Jade's boyfriend is an American pilot who wears a Colt M-1917 .45 that he kept after the war. Mrs. Arruda insisted on that aspect, and we settled on the Colt.

If you or your wife might like those books, have a look at her site, designed by her husband: www.suzannearruda.com Very colorful site, and good books based on a lot of research.

 

[Texas Star]

Why would you want to shoot a hyena? They're so cute and cuddly.

Well, they sneak around in native villages and sometimes bite off the face (or worse) of sleeping drunks, and I know of one that began ambushing people. May have been rabid.

Also, they are often kept by witch doctors and used to do vile things.

In one of my stories, one entered the tent of a girl who fortunately woke in time to shoot it as it lunged for her. That one had been trained to attack people by a witch doctor who was leading a revolt against British rule. It made for a good story.

I had another hyena, affected by mange, dash out of a cave, where the heroes were searching for the legendary Nandi "bear." It provided some excitement and let the Challengers show their marksmanship before they realized it was just a big, stocky hyena.

Great photo, BTW. Thanks for posting.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm with the .44/40 crowd - I think ammo was widely available back in the day. I'm still trying to talk myself into a Winchester 92 in that caliber that is sitting in a nearby gun shop - it is stamped "China Navigation Co" on the barrel and probably has some tales to tell.

I'd give the intrepid hero a matching pair of Colts - a four inch New Service with stag grips and Lightning pump, both in 44/40.

 

[Homechicken]

I'd think that .455 Webley and .45 Colt ammo would have been the most plentiful in out of the way locations such as India, Africa and South America. They'd both been around for a good while by the mid 1920's. The .45 ACP was still relatively new in the 1920's. I'm not sure how reliable the supply would be at the far corners of the earth. The Colt New Service was in the middle of its production life at that time and was chambered in .45 Colt and .455 Webley among others, so perhaps that would have been a good choice to take to out of the way places. Since the main character is royalty of sorts and has a big purse, maybe he'd even have a pair of Colt New Service revolvers that had been adapted by a gunsmith to take interchangeable cylinders to fire both the Webley and Colt ammo, so that if there was a shortage of one the cylinders could be swapped so that the other cartridge could be used. I can see taking an initial supply of ammo, but weight is a factor and it would be much more practical to carry firearms that ammo could be found for locally.

If it has to be a S&W revolver, then I could see it perhaps being a M1917 in .45 ACP, though I think a local supply of .45ACP ammo might still be iffy in out of the way places the 1920's.

 

[Texas Star]

I think ammo re-supply would be a real issue only in remote Brazil, where what you brought was what you had. No nearby cities or trading posts. Kenya and India were well settled, and gun shops in Nairobi would have most common ammo, also in India, where a host Maharajah might well also have scads of spare ammo.

I'm leaning toward a .45 Colt, but the thin chamber walls in it and the .44/40 might give pause. Still, S&W was heat treating cylinders by then, and Prof. Challenger would be able to estimate the safety factor. These guns seemed safe with factory ammo. Keith blew .45 Colt cylinders, but only with overloads. He once split a forcing cone in three places! But I don't know how old the gun was.

Remember, the Challenger Expedition would have never heard of Elmer Keith until the 1930's, then only if they subscribed to American gun magazines, which Lord Roxton and Finn might do. I liked it when Finn first met John R. on TV. She looked him over and said, "Nice guns!", admiring his twin Webleys.

In my fics, they became more or less brother and little sister, Roxton focusing on Marguerite romantically, as on the show. Marguerite feels excluded from their gun talk and hunting interest and drolly calls John and Finn "The Gun People", to Veronica's and Ned's amusement.

A key need is for a handgun bullet to penetrate the brain of a big wild cat, even a tiger, or a large boar that might be savaging someone, or a crocodile. I think any caliber mentioned would kill an anaconda or python. I don't seriously entertain that they'd shoot many dinosaurs with handguns, although that happened on the show, in the case of raptors that might measure 8-10 feet and probably weighed as much as 250-350 pounds. But that should be possible, although reptiles die hard! Big monitor lizards might be a problem, if one got into the Treehouse or a hut. I recall Jungle Jim shooting a monitor in India or Malaya in a 1950's comic book. As far as I could tell, his gun was a New Service .45 Colt. I liked the Jungle Jm comics better than the TV show, which I felt had miscast Weissmuller as the character. He didn't even carry a gun on TV, just a small hunting knife. It resembled a Marble's Woodcraft style.

I just got to thinking this week which N-frame S&W an explorer might have. And whether .44 Special ammo was ever popular enough outside the USA for it to be considered. The .455 had low velocity and was designed to tumble in a human body. Maybe not too good a choice for killing big, dangerous animals, although they'd be shot only in emergencies, at close range. I'm pretty sure that a real Lord Roxton would bring his Webleys only because he liked them and intended them for protection against men and snakes. He also had that .45 auto, and would have appreciatedf its greater power and rapid reoading. He may well have gained a lot of respect for it in trench warfare in WW I. And the jacketed bullets would give better penetration in big animals.

Actually, the .45 automatics often carried by Roxton and Ned Malone on TV would be good choices. I just want him to experiment, as he might do, being a gun enthusiast. And he might well admire the .44-framed S&W's. So might American reporter Ned Malone, but I can more readily see Ned settling for an M-1917 .45, to use the same ammo as his automatic. Ned probably liked nice guns, but wasn't presented as an enthusiast, as was Roxton.

BTW, someone above said that Roxton was "royalty." No. Royals are the actual family of the Monarch on the throne. An Earl is "nobility", but not royalty, unless a Royal also has the additional title. That happens, as Prince Phillip is also the Duke of Edinburgh, and his grandson, Prince William and his bride Katherine are now also Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. But Roxton was nobility and wealthy through his family fortune. The TV show also noted that he was awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry in WW I. That's the Commonwealth equivalent of our Medal of Honor. Roxton in the TV show was more complex, handsome, and dashing than in Doyle's book. All of the TV characters were more interesting, and all the women were added, save for Jessie Challenger, who was presented as much older than in the book, surely in part because the actress was the real wife of Peter McCauley, who played Challenger. His wife was also a director on that series. I can only imagine her reaction if she knew that I had Jessie die in my stories and Challenger marry the much younger Finn! But they click better together than some readers expected, and some skeptics later told me that they were amazed at how well that couple functions. Each filled a role that the other needed. But that's another story. This is about the gun stuff, and I think a .44-framed S&W might be too large for Finn and the other ladies to use well or carry comfortably. So, they got S&W .38's in those stories.

I do wonder how well the .44 Special fares with factory ammo. I have Marshall and Sanow's books on stopping power, and it seems to be about on par with 230 grain hardball results, but .44 barrel lengths weren't discussed. Actually, the better .38 Special loads from four-inch barrels seem to overlap .44 and .45 results unless the better modern largebore ammo is used. That was very revealing.

The flaw in the .44/40 is that the 200 grain bullets are rather stubby for caliber. Keith found that a similar softnosed .38/40 bullet failed on the skull of an elk, which nearly killed him. But Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, VC, commented that the .44/40 was the best revolver "killer" that he saw in use on the NW Frontier of India. Of course, he was referring to stopping power on men. Keith's, "Sixguns" does cite several examples of .45 Colt bullets killing bears. One involved a shot under the chin of a big grizzly that broke the neck.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The .44/40 was commonly to be found in Brazil back then and probably now. (The lever guns from Brazil that cowboy action shooters discovered thus chambered were all originally in production for the local market.) Colt New Service revolvers were considered (and advertised) as "THE" gun for exploring rough places, having adventures with, etc at the time. The .45 Colt and .44/40 were probably most favored for this. The latter had the advantage in that you could get a Winchester carbine that used the same ammo, and these were popular with those going to out of the way places as well. I don't think Smith and Wesson had the same market share overseas.

Personally, I'd get a Luger or Mauser in .30 caliber. Wouldn't be too hard to have some jacketed steel core bullets - or machined bronze ones - made up. There were no laws against AP ammo at the time. In the Thompson-LaGarde tests it was actually a well placed .30 Luger round that dropped a steer the fastest and most dramatically.

In China this would have been a common, and much copied, weapon. Were artillery Lugers ever made in .30? Probably for enough money the factory would have turned one out back then.

 

[Texas Star]

The .44/40 was commonly to be found in Brazil back then and probably now. (The lever guns from Brazil that cowboy action shooters discovered thus chambered were all originally in production for the local market.) Colt New Service revolvers were considered (and advertised) as "THE" gun for exploring rough places, having adventures with, etc at the time. The .45 Colt and .44/40 were probably most favored for this. The latter had the advantage in that you could get a Winchester carbine that used the same ammo, and these were popular with those going to out of the way places as well. I don't think Smith and Wesson had the same market share overseas.

Personally, I'd get a Luger or Mauser in .30 caliber. Wouldn't be too hard to have some jacketed steel core bullets - or machined bronze ones - made up. There were no laws against AP ammo at the time. In the Thompson-LaGarde tests it was actually a well placed .30 Luger round that dropped a steer the fastest and most dramatically.

In China this would have been a common, and much copied, weapon. Were artillery Lugers ever made in .30? Probably for enough money the factory would have turned one out back then.

Gator-

Actually, Theodore Roosevelt did suggest a round similar to the .30 Luger after his Brazilian trip of about 1919. But he was concerned with shooting smaller game.

My heroes had other criteria in mind.

Now this: years ago, I read in, "Guns" a story by a couple who did considerable exploration in Latin America. They found a P-'08 Luger a little overpowered and went to a Colt Woodsman .22! But like Roosevelt, they never had to shoot a headhunter or a jaguar or big caiman.

And many others have found the 9mm to be lacking in killing power on animals the size of an agouti or a brocket deer that might be taken for food. I think it says something that Sasha Siemel wore a .44. He would have had jaguars in mind, and had at least one human foe who had threatened him, one Ricardo Favel. He didn't get far enough back in the jungle to encounter Jivaro or other headhunters.

 

[model70hunter]

The 44-40 was the most potent round of this era closely followed by the 45 Colt. If milord is knowledgable and gun savy he would use what has worked most properly for others, not what is trendy or underpowered. Besides, no caliber other than the 44 MAg has such a catchy name.

Example; I saw the Leopards tail twitch and remembered the ghastly permanent wounds a Leopard carved on my friend Lord Mountbottom's face. Without hesitation I unholstered my Colt New Service 44-40 and dispatched the crazed beast whilst marking up a smidgeon of revenge for my friend.

Or go with a S&W in 45 Colt.