I just got a depressing call from Houlton ME PD Updated 7/20

[Cooter Brown]

If you are not able to get satisfaction from the dealer, understand that around here anyway restitution is taken pretty seriously. It is a part of probation and any failure to meet a payment date generates a warrant and they get tossed back in the pokey.

Good luck with what is certainly a bad situation.

 

[J.Solo]

Tell the dealer that you are going to report him to the local BATF office for dealing in stolen guns. That may make him cooperate. Good Luck - J.Solo

 

[Sebago Son]

Man, that sucks.

Check into the Victim's Restitution Fund that many Maine counties have. When my farm was broken into and guns stolen in 2002, the guns were recovered immediately and the York County DA's office got cash for me to repair the property damage.

I would think that you could petition the Aroostook County DA's office or at least get info from them.

As far as checking an NCIC Master "Red Sheet" for stolen guns, I think that you'll find that private individuals, including FFL's cannot access this list. Only LEOs can do this and while they may comply, I do not think that there is any statute that says that they must. At very least, you'll probably be asked by them why you are suspicious and had better have a good answer. This will vary from agency to agency I'm sure.

One more thing.... I have found that the "Red List" relies on serial numbers mostly provided by victims. As such, it is subject to the vagaries of interpretation. IE: How many times have we seen Smiths incorrectly identified using the assembly numbers erroneously related as the serial number? This is very common among st neophytes with guns mounting target stocks covering the butt of the grip frame. Duplicate or incorrect numbers have resulted in erroneous "hits".

 

[murphydog]

Several years ago I bought a used gun from a dealer, and later on the SN was run and it was found to be stolen. When I informed the selling dealer with the story my money was refunded, no questions asked.

I agree you should have all your ducks in a row in case your dealer's answer is "no" but contact them first; they just might make the situation right. Good luck.

 

[jrm53]

I had a FFL until 93 and the atf never knew what I had unless the Distributor that sold me the S&W's contacted the ATF as to where the weapon was sold to, I had never had a vist from the ATF in the 12 or 13 years I had a FFL, if I handled a sale for some one I had to have a signed ffl from them for my bound book to show where it went, The only time they saw my records was when I sent every thing to them when I quit. I dont know how the big guys that sold to me handled their paperwork. Jeff

 

[opr1945]

A seller can transfer no better title than he has. A thief has no title, so anyone who buys from a thief gets no title. That includes the dealer. The dealer sold to you, you got no title because he had no title. If he had good title you would still have the gun.

The dealer IS liable to you. whether or not he new title was bad is irrelevant. The loss should flow back to the thief, not you. It would be of interest to know what the dealer paid the thief.....real low price is evidence of knowledge of no title.

Whether or not it is worth pursuing or spending money on a lawyer is a different question entirely. Were it me I would take a shot at it (no pun intended).

 

[Onisius]

Personally I would contact ATF and find out what a dealers responsibility concerning having sold the stolen gun is, prior to contacting the dealer.
Knowledge is power, this may be a pure accident by the dealer or he may be a shady dealer.

When I contacted the dealer, I would be polite and if legal in your jurisdiction, record the conversation. He may be a squared away guy and make it right, or not.

There seem to be a lot of unknowns, but I would not take a $1k loss. To me there is a reasonable assumption that purchasing through a dealer gets you a clean, crime free weapon.

Ok, I have rambled enough.
Good luck and let us know how it works out for you.

 

[usm1rifle]

I believe the dealer owes you your money back. He is the one who sold stolen property and I would let him know I am filing a complaint with the County Attorney for his receiving and selling stolen goods. The fact the he did not know it was stolen does not relieve him of responsibility.

I believe he will see that it is much cheaper for him to pay you $1000 than defend a felony charge.

That's my two centavos...

 

[CALREB]

If it only took 2 days for your paperwork to reveal that the gun was stolen ,then how many days was it on the dealer's books and how could he not know it was stolen. Like someone else said,thats a pretty rare gun what did the dealer pay for it. if dealer doesnt pay up just go to small claims.
I would think that dealers would determine if a gun was stolen before paying someone for it and determine that persons infr at least before they resell it just for good business.IMO,Good Luck Bob

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I know that the PD got my name and address from the 4473 at the dealers. I honestly don't know how they tracked it to him. Maybe through the nics check that they aren't supposed to keep records on? Obviously he did not run the serial number through any kind of a database to check to see if it was stolen, and I don't know if dealers are required to do this anyway.

I'll tell you exactly how they got your name. They arrested the perp-he copped to a bunch of burglaries including the one where he stole the 16-4. The ower of the 16-4 is knowlegeable about guns, is HOT cause it is an expensive gun, and thusly the cops lean on the guy as to what he did with it. Hoping to curry favor, he tells where he sold it. The po po go to the dealer and as they say the rest is history.
Now-and here's where it gets fun-what did the dealer pay for the gun and under what circumstances was it purcghased? In Louisiana possession of stolen property is knowingly possessing that which you knew or should have known was stolen. (presumably it's the same in Maine) If the dealer paid $150 for it from some guy drooling , barefoot and stinking of wine-odds are you can make a fairly good case that he knew it was probably hot. If he paid say $750 for it and the guy was clean shaven, wearing kakies with a sweater around his shoulders with his girlfriend Muffy by his side, then the issue of whether he knew or should have know it was stolen becomes a bit problematic. I suspect that the truth lies somewhere inbetween so it would be difficult if not impossible to prove the FFL knew or should have known the gun was stolen. (that pesky reasonable doubt rearing its ugly head ). His general reputation would also come into play as well. Is he a scum bag pawnshop owner/fence with an FFL or a reputable dealer? This is all very fact specific.
Me, if it was in Louisiana, I would do my due dilligence regarding the FFL and if it wasn't the first scenario, I would leave it alone and concentrate on getting restitution from the perp as a condition of probation or parole.
I know that down here the judicial system takes an ESPECIALLY DIM view towards burgulars that steal guns and a lot of effort is made to recover and obtain restitution for those not recovered. Believe me, my hobby with firearms has come in very handy regarding valuations on both sides-I can tell the DA that that Marlin model 60 my client lifted isn't the $500 gun the victim says it is on the restitution sheet as well as gettin gtop vaule for a guns value when I am sitting across the table from the owner with the poor aggrieved wife
Good luck with this, I would bet that you are going to get your money back from the perp as part of a deal.

 

[madmikeb]

This has been going on for awhile evidently. I purchased the gun last October, and according to the detective the gun was stolen in Jan 2010. So I have had it about 9 months. I figure that maybe they busted the perp for the burglary and he told them where he sold the guns and the dealers records led to me.
I think I will contact the Maine division of the BATF tomorrow, see what they say, then I'll contact the dealer and see if he has any intentions of doing anything for me. I'll take it from there and see what happens.

If it only took 2 days for your paperwork to reveal that the gun was stolen ,then how many days was it on the dealer's books and how could he not know it was stolen. Like someone else said,thats a pretty rare gun what did the dealer pay for it. if dealer doesnt pay up just go to small claims.
I would think that dealers would determine if a gun was stolen before paying someone for it and determine that persons infr at least before they resell it just for good business.IMO,Good Luck Bob

 

[madmikeb]

Thanks Cajunlawyer, you posted while I was typing my last post so it sure sounds like that must be the case!

 

[feralmerril]

I just know if I sold a gun to someone and he ran it and found it hot, I would be in a heap of dung. Now if a FFL dealer did the same I would think his problem because of being a ffl dealer would be far worse!
If not, why would I even want to buy from a dealer when I could buy from fast eddy far cheaper? Personaly, I think you are stressing the situation for naught unless the story is the same after the dealer tells you to pound sand. There just has to be a reason that a dealer needs a ffl, business license and insurance or I may as well start up a business tomorrow dealing out of my car trunk!

 

[S&W Fan]

Just so I understand; gun is stolen in January, you purchase it from a dealer the following October. It should be pretty damn easy to find out when the dealer bought it, whether he ran it through ncic/mcic before purchasing.

Unless Maine ffl dealers are not required to clear any purchased firearm how the hell did it get to the sales table in the first place??

I worked for two ffl dealers in the past and any final agreement made on purchasing a used firearm required the manager or owner running the firearm through either the local pd (that was in the early 80s) or state (which would run it through n.c.i.c.-this was prior to establishment of n.i.c.s.)

And as already pointed out the detective is not your best source for points of law. Good luck to you.

 

[GF]

"...get your money back from the perp..." (?)
CL

He probably dosen't have any money or he wouldn't be stealing guns.

As you say, Good luck with this.

GF

 

[andyo5]

Thanks for all your replies, I discussed this with the detective and he told me that the dealer was not liable because he did not steal the gun, he purchased it from the thief. The only way I could expect a refund from the dealer is out of the kindness of his heart.

This being the case, a person with an FFL could do a tidy business obtaining stolen guns for cheap, and selling them for normal prices from his table at a gun show.

 

[Garywapx]

My 2 cents are to take the time (and for 1K I would) to visit ftf with the dealer, explain the situation, and I would bet he would make it right with you. Legal or not if he's reputable, he does not want this to get around.
There are a few good people out there, you may find one.

 

[alaskavett]

First I have to thank you for sharing your sad story with all of us. Many if not all of us could at any time find ourselves in this situation. I don't know law in other states but there was a time here before cell phones when I would go to a persons home concerning a firearm for sale. More then once when I asked if I could use the home phone in the residence to call the local police and access "NCIS" I was then denied the sale! Interesting.... None of us desires to possess a stolen gun or anything for that matter. Does anyone here have a good way to prevent this scenario? OK, so all of that said, Is there a member here who live in Maine and knows the law and avenue of recourse for this individual? I think we all can learn from this unfortunate set of circumstances. My 2cents worth. Kyle

 

[andyo5]

More then once when I asked if I could use the home phone in the residence to call the local police and access "NCIS" I was then denied the sale!

You said "NCIS", but I think you must have meant "NICS". Right?
"NCIS" means Naval Criminal Investigation Service, for which a TV show has been named. I can understand why they wouldn't want you to call them.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

 

[Hondo44]

I just can't imagine an FFL selling stolen property, a firearm no less, w/o consequences, the least of which is reimbursing you!