S&W 625-JM Catastrophic Failure/Accident

[pageophile]

As with the other posters, I'm glad you're A OK.

I reload myself and while I'm envious of the speeds an automated set-up can bring, I'm also a big fan of the checks and double checks I can do with my set-up.

Additionally, I've "lucked" out with my current calibers and loadings. A double charge of powders in many of my reloads would result in case over flow. A nice "idiot" proof back-up for me

 

[Practical]

WOW! We're just glad you weren't injured. It will be interesting to see what S&W has to say and I'll bet they'll want to look at your revolver. The vast majority of kabooms like this are caused by overpressure loads. A friend of mine did the same thing to a beautiful Colt Python. He sent it back to Colt and they concluded that the powder charge in his reload detonated instead of burned, and ofcourse since he was shooting reloads it voided any warranty. Let us know how things turn out.

I don't see how powder can detonate.

It burns. Some burn faster some slower and all produce gas.

Overpressure is the cause here.

I still most likely think a double charge. I have seen it happen on Dillon presses due to operator error.

OR could something have been stuck in the shell to reduce case volume?

 

[BarkSlayer]

Yikes! That could have been ugly. Glad you're okay.

 

[ExMachina1]

I don't see how powder can detonate.

this is one of those old wives tales that makes it around every once and a while, but that never comes with any scientific evidence.

fact is no reloading manual that i have ever seen (or heard of) makes mention of it (and if anybody had a strong interest in describing this phenomina, it would be a corporation putting their name on a reloading manual!) rather, the stories that get filtered down are all about how it could never have been a double charge, so it must have been a "detonation" (not the the OP is claiming this here).

can powder detonate?--i don't know. but i will say that if it could detonate, i would expect it to be doing so waaaaay more often than it is "reported" to.

 

[SW357Addict]

When powder in a cartridge burns it is a detonation of explosive and when the primer goes off the powder (an explosive) detonates. Either way you want to say it, the powder converts to gas, heat, and pressure in a matter of milliseconds.

Obviously, there was too much pressure. Excluding remote possibilities, it is an overcharge of powder. Every blown up revolver I have ever seen looks the same and in every case it is a powder over charge. Even though the reloader swears that it is not. Accept the fact that too much powder was in the case. It may not be a double charge but it was enough to rip this gun apart. This is one of the reasons I always weigh each and every reloaded round to verify the weighs are all within a few grains of each other.

 

[number0009]

Obviously, there was too much pressure. Excluding remote possibilities, it is an overcharge of powder. Every blown up revolver I have ever seen looks the same and in every case it is a powder over charge. Even though the reloader swears that it is not. Accept the fact that too much powder was in the case. It may not be a double charge but it was enough to rip this gun apart. This is one of the reasons I always weigh each and every reloaded round to verify the weighs are all within a few grains of each other.

He also told me that over his career he has been aware of hundreds of instances where a firearm of some sort came apart; he has read many of the reports associated with these accidents; and he has personally investigated a number of them. Without commenting on this specific case, due to the lack of data, he pointed out that he is aware of only one instance where a gun failed due to a mechanical or metallurgical problem; in every other case there was some human error that caused the failure.

Never a firearm metallurgical problem yet they occur in jet turbine engines costing several million dollars a copy?
Not saying so in this instance but to just pretend it doesn't happen is rather naive.

....

 

[ExMachina1]

When powder in a cartridge burns it is a detonation of explosive...Either way you want to say it, the powder converts to gas, heat, and pressure in a matter of milliseconds.

there's a difference between "detonation" and "burning". burning is a controlled chemical reaction and is why we try to match the burn rate of a powder to a particular cartridge. powder burn rate increases with confinement and pressure, but it always burns.

a detonation happens nearly instantaneously (think of TNT) and is a chain reaction that, once it begins, is not a controlled process. detonations require no confinement in which to occur.

people have speculated that low powder volumes can cause the powder to somehow not burn but to detonate, essentially releasing all of the powder's energy in one large event. problem is that it's not a process that has ever been officially confirmed by any ammunition loading establishment.

 

[tcc1953]

Not pointing any fingers - I am a big Smith fan, own several including a JM - this is the second almost identical failure I've seen in the last couple of years; the other was a 44 mag with popgun reloads. The owner is one of the really particular people and I felt an overcharge was not the issue. The pictures were almost identical. Both were late model guns, both stainless. Hmmmmm..........

 

[Neumann]

Certain double-based powders can be made to detonate with a blasting cap. Bullseye, for example, contains about 13% nitroglycerine. It is unlikely that a pistol primer has enough energy to cause detonation, but can't be ruled out. The nitrocellulose component is nitrated to a lesser degree than guncotton.

Ordinarily, smokeless powder burns from the outside in, at a speed dependent on pressure, rather slowly unless the powder is confined. Detonation progresses through the solid body at an extremely high speed (> 3000 fps), whether it is confined or not.

If detonation occured, you would probably find brass particles embedded in the steel cylinder. More likely, overpressure or a defect in the cylinder was at fault.

 

[scooter123]

Anything that burns can be made to detonate if the conditions are correct. All it takes is the proper heat and pressure. Fortunately, it's pretty difficult to cause detonation with modern powders for firearms, however do something foolish and it can happen.

BTW, the key difference between low explosives such as gun powder and high explosives such as nitroglycerin is that the speed of the pressure wave with a high explosive is fast enough that it will cause detonation in an unrestrained environment. Basically the pressure wave moves so rapidly that it compresses the air to a pressure high enough to trigger detonation.

Gun powders burn too slowly to create a pressure wave that can trigger detonation in open air, however fill the barrel of a black powder rifle completely, pack the powder in firmly, and then set it off and the mass of the unburnt powder in the barrel will create enough pressure to cause some of that black powder to detonate and result in an impressivly exploded gun with lethal results to whoever was foolish enough to pull the trigger. BTW, read about that back in the 70's when some idiot tried to turn a black powder gun into a Roman Candle, however Roman Candles burn from the top down, not the bottom up.

 

[J D Allen]

kaboom

As with all here , we are glad your not hurt. I had a similar problem when my auto exploded , blowing the mag out and sent the case head out of the gun. I believe the bullet wasn't crimped tight enough allowing the bullet to move back against the powder. This increases the pressures inside the weapon. I got lucky too. Kaboom klub

 

[PHB]

I ran into an old timer at the local gun shop yesterday and he said these pictures have been floating around the web for awhile and to take them with a grain of salt he said the pics have been altered I don't know what to think.

 

[SuperMan]

I didn't read all the pages so this may have been already asked... The bullet found on the ground, did have rifling marks on it?

The 550 can be double charged...I've caught myself doing it. Happens when someting slighly jams like the primer feed, One raises the ram back up to clear the feeding jam forgetting you have already charged the case... Then forget to dump the double charge and set the primed case aside.

Being that Buffalo Bore states that their .45 Super can be run in 625s my guess is a double charge.... Also have you ever double charged a case just to see how much room is left. I try and find powders that when I have the desired velocities a double charge will totally fill the case. That way I can't seat the bullet.

Bob

 

[ExMachina1]

I ran into an old timer at the local gun shop yesterday and he said these pictures have been floating around the web for awhile and to take them with a grain of salt he said the pics have been altered I don't know what to think.

since when have old timers known about ANYthing on the internets?

 

[mmhoium]

I ran into an old timer at the local gun shop yesterday and he said these pictures have been floating around the web for awhile and to take them with a grain of salt he said the pics have been altered I don't know what to think.

PHB,

I assure you the pics are not altered or were faked. I was there and it was all pretty real. And if I go into my gun room right now, I assure you, 3/4 of a S&W 625JM will still be on the wall. If you need further proof, I'd be glad to post more pictures. Although it does look a little different now because the good guys at Smith cleaned it for me (and they didn't even charge for the cleaning job!).

Everyone else, thanks again for all the kind words.

-M

 

[williamlayton]

Thank the Good Lord that you have just a story to pass on and be discussed over coffee.
Blessings

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Certain double-based powders can be made to detonate with a blasting cap. Bullseye, for example, contains about 13% nitroglycerine. It is unlikely that a pistol primer has enough energy to cause detonation, but can't be ruled out. The nitrocellulose component is nitrated to a lesser degree than guncotton.

I seem to recall some articles - I want to say in American Rifleman - about revolvers blown up by low loads (target loads) in .38 Special caliber using Bullseye powder. Anyone know anything about that?

Regards,

Dave

 

[PHB]

mmhoium

I have no unkind words for you glad you or OK

 

[mmhoium]

I thought I would add a few more photos. After reading a few more of the comments I went back and looked at Jerry again and there is a part of the cylinder that bugs me. Looking at the left side of the cylinder there is a spot where there are two gaps along the cylinder wall. Any thoughts on why this would be? Evidence of weak brass at those points where the kaboom took place? Shouldn't it have broken cleanly rather than jagged?

I've gotta say, the insights from you all have been very informative and helpful. Thanks again for your contributions - this is excellent evidence of the quality of people that post here.

-Michael

 

[BruceM]

"I seem to recall some articles - I want to say in American Rifleman - about revolvers blown up by low loads (target loads) in .38 Special caliber using Bullseye powder. Anyone know anything about that?"

That story has been going around since Topsy was a pup. Nobody that I'm aware of has every been able to duplicate a small charge of Bullseye, whether it be in a .38 Special case or a .45 Colt case, detonating. I believe that the American Rifleman article said as much. I do believe that the testing was done by the H.P. White Ballistics Laboratory. This type of damage in a revolver is almost universally cause by a double charge, overcharge, mis-identification, etc. of propellant or some other type of human error. I would be really be interested in seeing any type of reliable documentation of a "detonation" in a pistol case using a small charge of a modern smokeless propellant which was normally considered to be safe. There may be something out there but I haven't seen it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist however, hence the curiosity.

I'd also be curious as to what percentage of those who have experienced either a squib or KaBoom with their handloads assembled them on a progressive as opposed to a single stage or turret press. I don't have a dog in that fight but I'm interested none the less.

Regardless of what actually happened, a KaBoom is a scary thing and I'm glad nobody was hurt in this one.



Bruce