woman's first handgun purchase for self-defense (not a total gun newbie)?

[dawgmom]

I apologize in advance if this topic has been explored repeatedly; I am new to the S&W forum. If I'm bringing up a tired topic, please feel free to direct me to the appropriate sticky thread, and I will slink away quietly!

I am not new to firearms in the sense that my husband and his friends are all (responsible) gun enthusiasts. I was taught to shoot by a remarkably talented marksman. (Not my husband - I know better than that!) However, I have not shot very often (time and $), and I have never owned my own firearm, though I've been considering it for a while - I usually just use one of his. Now it's time.

An alarming scenario occurred this week in my n'hood, and I now really want to have my own handgun, something that I can truly feel comfortable shooting. I prefer a revolver, that much is certain, and I don't want something too heavy, though I know I may not like the kickback on something too light. I really liked the feel of two S&W revolvers that I held today - a 442 with a 1 7/8" barrel and a 642 with a 2.5" barrel. I'd probably swap the grip out for a slightly larger one, as I'd prefer to have all of my fingers wrapped around the grip for control. I know they are the same frame, but I'm really torn on barrel size. I know the longer barrel will buy me more accuracy, but I suspect that if I needed this thing, I'd already be within pretty close range (unfortunately).

What are your thoughts on these two guns, other than visual appeal? Is there another S&W that you think I should consider? Am I underthinking the level of control available on such a light piece?

I look forward to the feedback. Thank you!

 

[P&R Fan]

First of all, welcome to the Forum.
You don't mention how you intend to use the revolver. Will it be a concealed carry gun or for home defense? If it's for carry those two you mention are excellent choices. I'd be willing to bet most people on here who have been carrying very long have one of those. I certainly do. If you want it for home defense I would recommend something a bit larger. For a home defense gun it does not need to be concealed, so the barrel can be longer, and it should be. For this purpose I would recommend a medium or "K"-Frame revolver. This would be the S&W M10 or M64 in .38 Special. The difference between these two is the M10 is blued and the M64 is stainless (which would be better in my opinion as rust would not be an issue). These can be had in barrel lengths of 2", 3" or 4". They are also very easy to find and a used one shouldn't cost more than about $300-$350. These are very simple to learn to shoot and allow a full hand grip. Plus their weight makes shooting .38 Specials very pleasant. It would also be a very good idea to get a .22 revolver to practice with. It has almost no recoil, and is very inexpensive to practice with A LOT. Plus they're fun.
This is probably the easiest, cheapest and most effective solution to your situation. When you make your decision let us know.
All the best to you,
Jim

 

[papajohn428]

After three decades of shooting and a couple of teaching the handgun I'll give you the "quick 'n dirty" version.

Snubbies are basically guns for the experts, if you want anything resembling accuracy past halitosis range.

The grip is vitally important as it's the only interface you have with the gun, so it has to fit YOUR hand.

Decent sights are a must, you can't align what you can't see. The better your close-up vision is, the smaller they can be.

Practice double-action shooting........don't cock the hammer to shoot. In times of stress your fine motor skills will leave you, and you'll need to be able to control the trigger squeeze, rather than jerking ineffective shots in all directions.

A used Model 10 or 64 is a wonderful idea, and will easily handle any load you can put in it. There are literally hundreds of grip possibilities for them. The triggers tend to be good, while some are downright excellent. I carry a Model 64 at work, and the trigger was so good I went out and bought two more 64's just like it. They're my favorite guns for training women and kids, and the ones I grab when I just want to get some trigger time.

Practice, both dry and live fire, it's the only way to develop muscle memory. I used to put little red stickers in various places around the house, and as I walked from room to room, I'd draw and dry-fire every time one came into view. Shooting is one skill, but getting the gun into play smoothly and quickly is another.

Hope this helps.

 

[dawgmom]

Thank you, Jim and Papa - great and thoughtful responses!
I'd already typed out one response in full and managed to delete it, so let me give it another try...

Jim, I should say "carry" for now, to your "carry" or "home defense" question. My initial reaction was to think, "well, I really want it for both".

The reason is for home defense right now, "my" weapon is DH's Ruger SPC-101 .357 with a 1.5" barrel. I've shot it a few times and have had very good accuracy with it at more than 25 yards, so I'm comfortable with the barrel length. The weight feels balanced to me, overall - I know it's a nice gun. However, it's a little too heavy for me to feel comfortable with one-handed, and the grip is a bit too large for me, as well. (Papa would not approve, I can tell already!) We're talking self-defense here; I may have to shoot with one hand from down on all fours, you know? I don't like the idea of me trying to do that with the Ruger.

Now, I'm no weakling - I can hold and shoot the Ruger with one hand, and I suspect adrenaline would carry some of that weight for me in that awful circumstance. But I fight bouts of carpal tunnelish symptoms in that wrist from time to time, so I worry about the weight, maybe more than I should.

There is also a S&W m38-2 around, but it's DH's carry piece, and I think I'd have to fight pretty hard to get him to give it to me. He'd somehow manage to get a new one to replace it, and well, that's just not fair!

Net - sorry to be so long-winded - I (arguably) already have a "home defense" piece. I'd thus like something small enough to carry should I want to carry it, but big enough to have some purchase should I need it. I do not want a .22. In a perfect world I'd get to have 2 guns just my size, but since I can only buy one for now, I want to make the best choice I can. I can always build a wish list for gun #2 later.

Does that prompt any additional comments?

 

[off road]

Some snub revolver wisdom here! http://www.keepandbeararms.com/Puckett/firstgun.pdf

I will qualify this by saying one should not 'learn' to shoot on a snub. Get proficient with a .22, then some larger frame revolvers, and work your way down to a snubby. But remember, any gun that is to big/heavy to carry and therfore must be left at home, isn't going to save your life when you are away!

I would recommend the S&W 642/442, or the scandium framed models if you feel the need to go even lighter.

 

[dawgmom]

The link is very on point, thank you! However, I'm not sure what to make of the rest of your comments.

The link described precisely the type of gun I'm hoping to purchase; the 642 with a 2.5" barrel fits that article's description, doesn't it? I've noticed that both Jim and PapaJohn mentioned the M64, so I feel like I should check it out, too, though it sounds like it typically has a 4" barrel, which would not make it a good "carry" weapon. Or do you consider a 2.5" barrel a stubbie?

I hear you saying, "don't learn on a snubbie", but depending on your definition, that's what I was taught on - the Ruger has a 1.5" barrel. There isn't a standard definition of "snubbie" that I can find, so if I've missed it, I apologize. (I actually did a search on it, and found the results very uneven. Check out this thread at thehighroad - Definition question: Snubbie - THR). I really don't want a .22. (I've shot DH's enough to know that.) Is the concern with stubbies accuracy, loss of control/kickback, or both?

I already know how to shoot (private lessons), though I totally respect and agree that knowing how to shoot and being seasoned in practice with shooting are two different things. I definitely plan to shoot my new gun on a more regular basis. My logic was to find a gun that really felt comfortable to me, then simply learn to be the best shot I can be on it until the time comes to add another one. Is there a gaping hole in this logic that I'm just not seeing? I'm open to the fact that there very well could be...

 

[P&R Fan]

You make some very good points, I can tell you are a Woman who knows a bit more than most about using a gun for "Serious Social Purposes". I wouldn't be too concerned about the weight. We're talking about a tool you may use to save your life. A 4" K-Frame weighs about 35 Oz. It may seem a bit much for extended shooting strings, but for your purposes that weight will help keep it steady.
You are absolutely right that you may have to use it in an awkward stance in an emergency, and you should practice that too. It will never be like it is at the range. I admire your attitude in that regard. However I would advise you to practice with both hands quite a bit too. In an emergency you will fight as you are trained. All the shooting schools stress two handed shooting. This is the most stable platform, and accurate shooting can be done that way. There are various stances to practice. I prefer the Weaver, but I have heard Women often do better with the Isosceles stance. If you are not familiar with what those are, ask somebody who is an experienced shooter, or you could even Google it.
The small J-Frames you mention, the M442 and M642 will serve you well for a carry gun. These are called the Centennial models. I carry one constantly, usually as a backup gun. They can also serve as a home defense gun, but the K-Frames are much better in that regard.
If you can only afford one gun now, get the ones we have mentioned. The .22 is a great way to learn trigger control, stance and sight picture without recoil, blast and expense, and that could be your next purchase.
You sound like a smart Lady, and you can tell your Hubby we said so.
Jim

 

[P&R Fan]

You posted your last response while I was typing. I type REALLY slow.
The snubbie is at a disadvantage in that the sight radius is shorter, which makes it harder to shoot accurately, although it is certainly capable of good accuracy. It will also give the bullet less velocity, which will impede expansion. Snubbies are great for carry, but for the home the longer barrel is best.
The M64 can be had with 2", 3" or 4" barrels. I think if you handle one you will be surprised how good it feels in your hand.
Jim

 

[dawgmom]

Thanks Jim!
By the way, I prefer - greatly - to shoot two-handed. I also prefer to shoot baskets straight on with no one trying to steal the ball away from me, either. So maybe I will try to make my range time 70% 2 handed, 30% 1 handed, just to make sure I can do it if I have to!

Looking forward to checking out the M64. Hubby will be proud!

 

[P&R Fan]

Ma'am, if you do that, you will be a force to be reckoned with!

You're gonna like it here on the Forum.
Keep us posted.
Jim

 

[papajohn428]

I can see you've given this a lot of thought already! Good for you.......so a few other points might be in order.

Your practice routine is important, and should include shooting one-handed, two handed, and weak-handed only. It's a lot harder to shoot with your non-dominant hand, a few trial shots will show you what I mean. The off-hand is usually not as strong as the dominant hand, and shooting will feel clumsy and awkward. Only sufficient practice can overcome that, though dry-firing works well here. I teach the trick of angling the gun about 30 degrees toward the center of your stance.......in other words, if you're shooting with your left hand, tilt the gun to the right to overcome the weakness of the muscles in that hand/arm. It helps with both recoil and trigger control, and could come in handy if your dominant hand is either injured or busy fending off an attack.

If possible, try some dry-fire exercises while lying prone and supine, as if you've just been pushed to the ground. Most ranges won't let you practice this with live fire, but it's a good idea to try it and see the differences it forces. Getting a good sight picture is harder, since you have to cant your head upward. Firing from your knees or on all fours is also difficult and worthy of practice, just to get used to the differences from standing straight up and shooting.

I recommend three-inch guns as the best compromise between portability and shootability. They're harder to take away, meaning easier to retain because the bad guy can't get as good a grip on the barrel, and runs the risk of losing a hand if he tries. (If he gets a hand on the cylinder it won't turn in double-action, and the best option is to jerk it back toward you and fire as he loses his grasp.)

Guns with three-inch barrels seem to be as easy to shoot well for most people as the four-inch guns, yet are slightly easier to conceal, and weigh a little less. Gun weight is a double-edged sword, heavy guns are more of a pain to carry and conceal, but are easier to shoot well, especially in rapid fire.

If you're comfortable shooting full-power 357 ammo from a snubby, more power to you! Most folks find it too blasty and hard to handle, so they carry 38+P ammo, and most of it is pretty good stuff. When it comes to 38 ammunition, we've never had it so good, there is plenty to choose from. Loads range from the 110-grain Hornady Critical Defense stuff, up to the 135-grain Speer Gold Dot (Short Barrel) ammo, and many heavy-bullet advocates (like me) still swear by the 158-grain Lead Hollowpoint, available from several makers. All are excellent choices.

Keep the questions and thoughtful comments coming.............this board has a few thousand years of experience and wise counsel to offer you!

 

[Martya]

dawgmom, I think from your questions and comments you are correct in thinking the 442/642 should be your next purchase. (BTW they are the same gun, same 1 7/8" bbl, just different finishes.)

Instead of which gun you want, consider what threats you, a citizen, might face. Remember you want to eliminate the threat; in doing so the results may be very different, but the idea is to protect yourself and any family or other citizens that may be in your vicinity by eliminating a threat.

If you are faced with an assailant inside your home, how far away could one be? Do you have typical 12-16 foot rooms? You behind a chair and the assailant comes through the door, how far away is he? That is how far you may have to shoot.

Outside, say a parking lot or sidewalk, how far away can you determine that a person is a threat, and not just another citizen? Is the guy at the next corner 50 yards away a threat? Unless they are 'spraying' the neighborhood with random gun fire, they are not a direct threat to you, you would duck and cover then run away.

Inside your car, an assailant is either at your door or the other door, not 25 or 50 yards away.

In a convenience store, an assailant elbows you out of the way to get to the store clerk, you are perhaps being threatened, and you are not 25 yards away. If you are at the back of the store and the clerk is suddenly threatened, could you be threatened also? Is the store tiny, or can you be 25 yards away, out of sight?

These are just some scenarios that would cause you to draw or not draw your weapon. The point is nearly every encounter that is a threat to you is going to be up close, 0-7 yards, not 25 or 50 yards away. (Try explaining why you shot at a threat that was 25 yards away.) A gun that, in your hands, eliminates a threat that is up close, that is also easy to carry, could very effectively be that 442/642. Go to a gun store and try some different revolvers, see how they feel. I think you will like the 442/642. Note that these are "J" frame size, and there are other "J" frame models with longer barrels if you prefer longer than the 442/642.

'Full sized' three finger grips are available for the Centennials - mine is from the S&W store - and you can shoot regular 38 sp at the range and carry 38+P and have a very effective very portable easily concealed defensive weapon.

 

[WR Moore]

I see a couple possible issues with your choices. First is that the sights on most snubbies are lousy, that's somewhat offset by the very low bore line. The second issue is both pistols you mention are air weights. They're very light, unfortunately, that means the recoil is greater and service life isn't the same as steel frame weapon. Granted, the S&W lifetime warranty will take care of breakage.

The 640 is virtually the same weapon as the 442/642, but with much better sights and a steel frame. Or as others have suggested, look for a model 10. There was a version with a round butt and a 3 inch barrel that was quite popular at one time.

Everyone wants an itty bitty carry piece with no weight-right up until they actually need it, when a 12 gauge seems much more comforting.

 

[redlevel]

Don't over analyze this. Get your 442/642/640, three or four boxes of target ammo, and go practice. Everything in life is a compromise. Yeah, a 4" barrel would be better, but not nearly as easy to carry. You don't have to have smoking hot ammo, either. I load my daughter's 442 with some of my medium wadcutters. Better than a .22, a .380, a .25, a .32, etc.

Come shoot with us sometime.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/175183-grits.html

 

[snowman]

dawgmom,

First, let me extend a warm welcome to you. I always appreciate the ladies' contributions here, but there are too few of them -I guess you ladies have more important things to do. At any rate, stop in when you get a chance and share your wisdom with us.

I'm not as expert as the others who have responded, but I did pick up on a couple things you mentioned and might be able to assist a bit.

My carry gun is also a Ruger SP101. I believe that you were concerned that it was too heavy for your carpal tunnel symptoms, and that the grip was too large for you. Let's start with the carpal tunnel issue. Do you experience pain just by handling/wielding the gun, or only when it recoils during firing? If the former, you indeed may want a lighter piece. If the recoil is what causes the pain, then the more weight the better, since recoil is more noticeable with lighter weight guns. The larger guns mentioned, such as the model 10 or 64, will not be lighter than the SP101, I don't believe. They have larger frames, cylinders, etc. and thus are heavier guns -something to keep in mind.

Now concerning the grip. This is perhaps the most important issue for ladies with small hands. When considering using a firearm to defend oneself, having a very firm grip on the gun may mean the difference between life and death. This means that one's fingers must extend nearly all the way around the grip. Also, it goes without saying that the trigger must not be too far forward for the index finger to reach and pull it easily and instantly, in double action mode. Once again, the models 10 and 64 are larger guns, so the distance between the grip and the trigger is likely greater than that of the 442/642(I don't know for certain, maybe the others can help with that). I also rather doubt that the grip on the 10 and 64 will be smaller than the one on the SP101, unless your husband has a larger aftermarket grip on his gun.

The best thing to do is make sure, if at all possible, that you're able to handle the guns mentioned before deciding what to buy. It would be very expedient also to be able to shoot them prior to the purchase. But I realize that that is often not realistic.

I hope that this has been somewhat helpful. If I've erred in my statements, I'm sure that someone will correct me promptly(Men are quite good at that, you know).

Andy

 

[off road]

However, I'm not sure what to make of the rest of your comments.

While snubbies are great carry guns, they aren't much fun to shoot! I'm into big bore magnum revolvers and we go out and shoot them all day long, but I fire a few rounds from my 11 oz snubs, and I have had enough.

But....if you want to be/stay proficient, you will need to practice so that is why I also recommend you also get a .22 revolver (the new Ruger SP101 is excellent), as well as a 4" revolver for some higher powered practice and perhaps home defense (or borrow or rent them if you don't feel like you want to start a 'gun collection'). You master these, and the training will carry over so when you have to fire the snub under extreme stress....all will feel very natural.

 

[dawgmom]

Y'all are the best, what a treat to have found this forum!

A couple of comments back...

While I know the 442 and 642 are on the same frame and differ by color, the 642 I held yesterday was a 2.5" barrel, and the 442 was a 1 7/8". So they are not all the same.

DH has a .22, and I have practiced with it. It is the easiest thing for practice, and I understand better now why several of you stressed the need to practice with one in addition to practicing with my purchased gun. I just didn't want the one gun I can purchase for now to be a .22. Good thing I have DH to borrow from!

As to the question about my wrist, it is bothered by the weight of the Ruger before I fire it, not just on recoil. Sometimes the wrist thing is worse than others, though - depends on the week! DH confirmed that his Ruger grip is factory, so if I find it too big (and I do), it may be that the M10 or M64 are too big, too - I'll just have to see.

Do any of you know if the M10 or M64 accept a smaller grip? I know you can usually upsize a grip, but DH says that to downsize, it depends on the frame.

All this chat has me eager to go back to the shop to "try on" a few more! Thanks y'all!

 

[papajohn428]

dawgmom,
Now concerning the grip. This is perhaps the most important issue for ladies with small hands. When considering using a firearm to defend oneself, having a very firm grip on the gun may mean the difference between life and death. This means that one's fingers must extend nearly all the way around the grip. Also, it goes without saying that the trigger must not be too far forward for the index finger to reach and pull it easily and instantly, in double action mode. Once again, the models 10 and 64 are larger guns, so the distance between the grip and the trigger is likely greater than that of the 442/642(I don't know for certain, maybe the others can help with that). I also rather doubt that the grip on the 10 and 64 will be smaller than the one on the SP101, unless your husband has a larger aftermarket grip on his gun.
Andy

The trigger reach on a J-frame S&W is shorter than it is on a K-frame, but not by much. But squeezing off a double-action (DA) shot requires more strength if the reach is longer. Ideally, the trigger finger should be pressing the trigger face with the end of the finger, like pushing a button, but many folks make it work by using the middle of the first pad. The difference is that in rapid fire, using the middle of the pad or the first knuckle can pull the gun low and left, so some experimentation is warranted to see how your own hands work best. There are no hard-and-fast rules about pulling the trigger, use whatever works best for you.

Trigger reach can be altered fairly significantly by changing the grips, and the SP-101 has the advantage of not having a grip frame that sets the outer dimensions of the grips, it has a stud that protrudes from the frame, and there are a variety of good grips to accommodate your particular reach. Keep handling guns of all brands and grip styles until you find one that feels totally natural, and allows you to reach the trigger comfortably.

When my PD hired several women back in the early 90's, the Chief came to me and said, "You shoot pretty good, and you have little girly hands.......teach them how to shoot like you do." Whether that was a compliment or not, I did what I was told. Once everyone found a grip they liked, we worked on trigger control, stance, sight picture, and all that stuff until they were consistently shooting 9's and 10's. Two of the female officers not only made me proud, but surpassed my ability with our issued revolvers. The other two passed qualification with plenty to spare. I called it a victory. (Shotguns were a different story. Yecch.)

As has been said, try as many different guns in YOUR hands until you find the one that snuggles into your mitt and purrs. Most often, that's the one you'll shoot the best.

 

[Joni_Lynn]

Welcome to the forum.
A S&W J frame is my usual choice in carry gun in either 38 or 357.
One thing I found to be important in the level of control and comfort while shooting is to have grips (or stocks) on the gun that fit yoru hand properly. It can make more of a difference than you would imagine.
Good luck in your choice of guns.

 

[dawgmom]

Trigger reach can be altered fairly significantly by changing the grips, and the SP-101 has the advantage of not having a grip frame that sets the outer dimensions of the grips, it has a stud that protrudes from the frame, and there are a variety of good grips to accommodate your particular reach.


Papajohn, this is an excellent point; maybe DH will let me put a smaller grip on the Ruger for home defense, and I can get a smaller S&W for carry.

Lots to think about!

Thanks all!