Finger on the Trigger?

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I guess just about everyone interested in guns, and especially handguns, is familiar with Jeff Cooper's four rules. The one I'm interested in here is rule number 3: Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

I'm here to tell you that there is plenty of photographic evidence that Cooper, and most Marines of his era, didn't practice what he preached. If you have a copy of 1911: The First 100 Years by Patrick Sweeney, look on page 128. There is a picture of a young Cooper and two more Marines, obviously on a range, with their 1911s pointed almost straight up, like they are waiting for an order to fire. All three have their fingers on the trigger. There is another pretty well known picture of Cooper drawing a 1911 from a shoulder holster. In that picture, the gun has barely cleared the holster, and his finger is on the trigger, or at least inside the trigger guard. Go to this site and you will see that picture and several other examples of soldiers and Marines, several of them in combat situations, with their fingers on the triggers of various weapons. I don't mean actually firing the weapons, but with them at the ready. Look particularly at the picture of the WWI soldier leading a machine gun crew across a rope/pontoon bridge.
History of the 1911 Pistol

I recall a picture of Sheriff Jim Wilson a few years back in one of the gun rags. It was either a staged photo, or an actual picture of the Sheriff shooting some kind of combat drill. His finger was inside the trigger guard as he moved to another position, and of course in the next month's letters, some sharp eyed reader called him on it. His reply was that he had trained himself to press the back of his finger against the inside front of the trigger guard until he actually brought the gun on target.

My point here is that rule number three is obviously of fairly recent origin. Obviously, the USMC didn't teach that during the two World Wars, Korea, and probably not Vietnam. There are just too many pictures of Marines and soldiers in training and in combat that are not following that rule. Obviously, the people who were in charge of setting safety rules didn't consider it to be that important. I never went to the service, but the thing I remember reading and hearing from the late 50s through the next twenty years was muzzle control, every gun is loaded, and be sure of your target.

I 'spect some of you have figured where I'm going with this: the keep your finger off the trigger rule became paramount when the Glop came along. I believe one can safely keep his finger inside the trigger guard of a 1911, as long as he has the proper training to take the safety off as the gun comes on target. Same with a double action revolver. There is a big difference between a 5.5lb trigger pull and a 12 lb pull. Obviously, it is indeed not safe to place your trigger finger on the Glop trigger until you are ready for it to fire. Obviously, given the number of negligent/accidental discharges, neither civilians nor police are doing a good job of adhering to this rule when carrying the tactical tupperware.

One of my favorite pictures. What kind of howl would go up if this picture was posed by current day competition shooters?
Screenshot2011-12-02at103222PM.png
 
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Yup I have pictures like that. Here is one. Would you belive a couple of these were LAPD swat? The picture is around 1971. I am on the far left with the hat and pipe. When you are flying down the freeway at 75 meeting other cars at 75 do you ever stop and think that anyone of those many cars could just do a millisecound twitch either by accident or on purpose and you might be shakeing hands with the devil? Whats different? In one hour of driveing you are trusting a thousand or more strangers with your life, are you not? Everything in life is a gamble. Its also a slideing scale of risk in everything we do. You can get killed driveing to prayer meeting wedsday night! People just need to use their heads. How many of those rock climbers we are talking about on another thread will probley tell you they wouldnt drive 10 feet without useing their seatbelt?

Merrilinthepasseddays001.jpg
 
Ahh! The good ole leather slap days. No I wasn't there. Too young.:p

But I get your point. I see it a lot too but never thought too mention it.

There is also a story of a gun writer who visited Cooper in his later years. Showed him a 44 mag. Cooper shot a hole through is window. Or maybe his wall. :eek: Two BIG mistakes by guys that know better.
 
Just take my word for this. One of those famous people was rideing in a police car with another aquantance of mine. They were showing guns to each other and one of those guys gun went off! I only heard that secound hand but belive it.
 
This thread brings to mind the exposed trigger guard holsters that so many of us old pharts foolishly carried for decades without accidentally shooting our butts off.

Things have changed so much in the last few years, that new shooters are paralyzed by the mere sight of some old "gunsel" packin' a revolver in a Jordan style holster, or a finger in the trigger guard of a double action gun.

Technology don't replace training and constant practice.

I have been in shooting incidents where a "secure" holster or a two stage procedure to get your finger on the trigger in a fast draw would have got me killed.
 
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Last tuesday on that quad ride that I wrote about where I tipped over, anyway at one point somebody wanted to know if I was armed as the other 3 guys were. I had a 2" s&w model 34 in my bib overalls over my right breast pocket, pulled it out for just a moment. The guy that asked me was packing some model s&w auto. He kind of marveled that I was in some kind of danger carrying a gun that way. I didnt argue, only said something like I thought it safe. These people younger than my 70 are all into autos and dont understand the safety of a DA revolver. Maybe I am remiss in not argueing the point. I think I just said I carried em 35 years on the job with no problem. My sleeping bag type bib overalls have zipper pockets on both sides of the chest. The gun is tight and safe in it. Had I been wearing a OWB holster and gun on me I belive it would have suffed up the gun and bruised me up even worse when I rolled the quad.
 
I started shooting a handgun with D/A revolvers. Nobody ever told me to keep my finger out off the trigger and to tell you the truth I never thought much about it. Good grief, you have to WANT to pull a D/A revolver trigger. Even today I find when I pick one up, my finger goes right inside the trigger guard. I have to tell myself to get it out.

But when I started with semi-autos, I made a point to hammer myself with the keep your finger off the trigger/alongside the slide. So with a semi-auto, my finger goes right alongside the slide. Funny how that muscle memory works.
 
If you look closely at the Leatherslap photo above, you may be able to tell that all the 1911's are empty.............you can see the breechface, illuminated by the flash.
 
well the other thing is keep in mind how many 1911's are made with match triggers now, with about a 2 - 2.5 pound trigger pull or are modified to have a match like trigger vs a normal goverment model 5 pound one

and shooting my own Kimber Gold Match at the range if I was to carry it I would keep my damn finger VERY far away from the trigger till I was a 100% ready to fire it because that thing is really quite light and probably has that light of a trigger on it, and honestly it seems like when you get going its very hard to stop.


and back when cooper made the bren ten he was evidently aware of this as its reportedly got a 5 pound trigger vs the match triggers of most 1911's now

so it probably best applies in addition to those rules with striker fired pistols in general and match like SAO only pistols like the 1911 if they have lighter than originally designed triggers.
 
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I think that having your finger on the trigger might give you a split sec. advantage when your life depends on it but instructors now have to teach to keep the finger off the trigger to keep from getting sued if something does go wrong. I think recommending holsters that cover the trigger guard is to cover the instructors. I'll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut if the instructor knew he was going to a gun fight he would have a holster with an exposed trigger and when he pulled his gun his finger would be on the trigger. Larry
 
Jordan Border Patrol Holster: I used this style for the first 35 years of my career carrying a revolver.
The next 10 years of my career I used a agency issued SSIII holster and a issue Sig-Sauer P-229 .40.
When issued the SSIII holster and Sig .40 we were taught the "Universal Cover Mode" which is "Finger Outside The Trigger Guard Until Firing". The trigger finger was to be held along side of the frame until firing.
Up until this time I had never heard of the "Universal Cover Mode".
I got in the habit of cocking the hammer of the Sig for the first shot where I had the same trigger for each shot. This was a "NO-NO".
Have the first shot double action and succeeding shots single action took some getting use to.
Jimmy
 
This thread brings to mind the exposed trigger guard holsters that so many of us old pharts foolishly carried for decades without accidentally shooting our butts off.

Things have changed so much in the last few years, that new shooters are paralyzed by the mere sight of some old "gunsel" packin' a revolver in a Jordan style holster, or a finger in the trigger guard of a double action gun.

Technology don't replace training and constant practice.

I have been in shooting incidents where a "secure" holster or a two stage procedure to get your finger on the trigger in a fast draw would have got me killed.

I think recommending holsters that cover the trigger guard is to cover the instructors. I'll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut if the instructor knew he was going to a gun fight he would have a holster with an exposed trigger and when he pulled his gun his finger would be on the trigger. Larry

I am really relieved to learn that I'm not the only one who thinks that muzzle control, knowing your target, and just general common sense are the keys to safety.

On the topic of holsters, I posted this picture of one of Lobo's works of art on another forum. About the third post down, somebody asked, "Isn't that exposed trigger guard dangerous?"

DSC02266.jpg
 
The Jordan and Threepersons style holsters were the standard for MANY years, and all of us who used these were taught when you started your draw finger went to the trigger as the barrel cleared the holster and was moving forward. I never had an A.D. using this draw nor do I know anyone who did.

At the range, finger off the trigger until on target is still the one rule I have to constantly remind myself of. 40 years of training is hard to get over.
 
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Old fabels die hard. When you are young and starting out we belive everything we are first taught to be gospel truth, after all, we are the newbie and the instructor is older and must be blessed by paperwork somewhere, right? Hey, it works for the liberal colleges!
My first cheif insisted we carry our offical police colts with 5, just like the old single actions. Our holsters were the old flap type. I was sure it was because they thought more of protecting their issued gun than us!
I belive that chief was born in the 1890s though. Most of all this stems from lawyers and lawsuits. Ruger prints the saftey manuel on the barrel, both ruger and smith puts on totaly useless locks. Every soul in the world is more scared of a lawyer than God! Best err on the side of lawyers than common sense, right?
One of the strangest sights I ever seen was a guy driveing through town with a revolver hooked over his cars antena through the trigger guard! The look on his face was like he was carrying a nucler bomb! I can only guess the story that must have been behind that!
I liken some people like that.
 
I am really relieved to learn that I'm not the only one who thinks that muzzle control, knowing your target, and just general common sense are the keys to safety.

On the topic of holsters, I posted this picture of one of Lobo's works of art on another forum. About the third post down, somebody asked, "Isn't that exposed trigger guard dangerous?"

DSC02266.jpg
A revolver made out of metal and a floral tooled leather holster with an exposed trigger. A great pair. Larry
 
I think that having your finger on the trigger might give you a split sec. advantage when your life depends on it
Electronic shot timers are wonderous things. They've proved your belief is false, there's no significant difference. This is especially true if the weapon has to move at all to cover the target.

I think recommending holsters that cover the trigger guard is to cover the instructors. I'll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut if the instructor knew he was going to a gun fight he would have a holster with an exposed trigger and when he pulled his gun his finger would be on the trigger. Larry

I can't speak for others, but most of us are heartily in favor of having the trigger guard covered. Especially when we're on the firing line with some folks. The only thing an exposed trigger allows you to do is shoot where ever your piece is pointed while it's still in the holster. And yes, my original Buchheimer duty holsters had exposed triggers.
 
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I guess just about everyone interested in guns, and especially handguns, is familiar with Jeff Cooper's four rules. The one I'm interested in here is rule number 3: Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.

I'm here to tell you that there is plenty of photographic evidence that Cooper, and most Marines of his era, didn't practice what he preached. If you have a copy of 1911: The First 100 Years by Patrick Sweeney, look on page 128. There is a picture of a young Cooper and two more Marines, obviously on a range, with their 1911s pointed almost straight up, like they are waiting for an order to fire. All three have their fingers on the trigger. There is another pretty well known picture of Cooper drawing a 1911 from a shoulder holster. In that picture, the gun has barely cleared the holster, and his finger is on the trigger, or at least inside the trigger guard. Go to this site and you will see that picture and several other examples of soldiers and Marines, several of them in combat situations, with their fingers on the triggers of various weapons. I don't mean actually firing the weapons, but with them at the ready. Look particularly at the picture of the WWI soldier leading a machine gun crew across a rope/pontoon bridge.
History of the 1911 Pistol

I recall a picture of Sheriff Jim Wilson a few years back in one of the gun rags. It was either a staged photo, or an actual picture of the Sheriff shooting some kind of combat drill. His finger was inside the trigger guard as he moved to another position, and of course in the next month's letters, some sharp eyed reader called him on it. His reply was that he had trained himself to press the back of his finger against the inside front of the trigger guard until he actually brought the gun on target.

My point here is that rule number three is obviously of fairly recent origin. Obviously, the USMC didn't teach that during the two World Wars, Korea, and probably not Vietnam. There are just too many pictures of Marines and soldiers in training and in combat that are not following that rule. Obviously, the people who were in charge of setting safety rules didn't consider it to be that important. I never went to the service, but the thing I remember reading and hearing from the late 50s through the next twenty years was muzzle control, every gun is loaded, and be sure of your target.

I 'spect some of you have figured where I'm going with this: the keep your finger off the trigger rule became paramount when the Glop came along. I believe one can safely keep his finger inside the trigger guard of a 1911, as long as he has the proper training to take the safety off as the gun comes on target. Same with a double action revolver. There is a big difference between a 5.5lb trigger pull and a 12 lb pull. Obviously, it is indeed not safe to place your trigger finger on the Glop trigger until you are ready for it to fire. Obviously, given the number of negligent/accidental discharges, neither civilians nor police are doing a good job of adhering to this rule when carrying the tactical tupperware.

One of my favorite pictures. What kind of howl would go up if this picture was posed by current day competition shooters?
Screenshot2011-12-02at103222PM.png

The guy to the left of Cooper in the photo is Thell Reed, one of the fastest men alive at the time when quick draw competitions were the rage, and I think the guy to the left of him is John Bianchi. The man on the far left looks familiar, is that Jim Clark ? Who is the gentleman on the right ?
 
The guy to the left of Cooper in the photo is Thell Reed, one of the fastest men alive at the time when quick draw competitions were the rage, and I think the guy to the left of him is John Bianchi. The man on the far left looks familiar, is that Jim Clark ? Who is the gentleman on the right ?

From jeffcooperfoundation.org

"Five of the top six competitors in the early days of practical shooting. From left to right: Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, Jeff Cooper, Jack Weaver. Missing is John Plahn. Jeff dislikes this picture because they are all violating two of the safety"
 
The guy to the left of Cooper in the photo is Thell Reed, one of the fastest men alive at the time when quick draw competitions were the rage, and I think the guy to the left of him is John Bianchi. The man on the far left looks familiar, is that Jim Clark ? Who is the gentleman on the right ?

The gentleman to the right is none other than Jack Weaver, inventor of the Weaver stance. He is the only one with a revolver, a Model 14. He won the matches for the first year or two, because he soon realized that if you wanted to hit the target, you needed to use the sights. Everyone else was hip shooting. They were faster, but not on target.

From left to right, Ray Chapman, Elden Carl, Thell Reed, Cooper, and Weaver.
 
Yup I have pictures like that. Here is one. Would you belive a couple of these were LAPD swat? The picture is around 1971. . . .

Merrilinthepasseddays001.jpg

Hi,

It is so sad how the chemicals in our photos change the colors through the years. So, I've tried to restore this photo for you, color-wise, to make it much more like it was originally. Hope you like it . . . "preserved" forever on a JPG!

Tom

6449942301_b4e4773001_b.jpg
 
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