S&W Innovators 1896-1961?

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

We often refer to the many remarkable advances in revolver designs during the period of 1896-1961 in wholesale terms. S&W did this, or that.

But who were the real individual front line "hands on guys" that were responsible for these research, design, development, engineering and finally, manufacturing improvements?

We typically credit the company at large, with only a few well known exceptions. But I must believe that many key employees contributed significantly with little notoriety or public acknowledgement.

Let's give them their due.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[Doc44]

Douglas B. Wesson worked with shooters of the day (Philip B. Sharpe and Elmer Keith) to develop the ".357" Magnum revolver. In the 1950s, Carl R. Hellstrom, President of S&W from 1946 -1963, was instrumental in bringing out many of the guns we know today, namely, the 1950 Target 44 and 45, the 1955 Target 45, the 44 Magnum, the Combat Magnum, etc. The names of the people in the R&D area and those who actually made and tested the new guns are not known to collectors. A few names such as Joe Norman, S&W's Chief Designer, are identified in the book, History of Smith & Wesson by Roy Jinks. Also, Mr. Jinks and Sandra Krein authored a book, Images of America, Smith & Wesson, that identifies many of the employees and their roles at the company.

Bill

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Douglas B. Wesson worked with shooters of the day (Philip B. Sharpe and Elmer Keith) to develop the ".357" Magnum revolver. In the 1950s, Carl R. Hellstrom, President of S&W from 1946 -1963, was instrumental in bringing out many of the guns we know today, namely, the 1950 Target 44 and 45, the 1955 Target 45, the 44 Magnum, the Combat Magnum, etc. The names of the people in the R&D area and those who actually made and tested the new guns are not known to collectors. A few names such as Joe Norman, S&W's Chief Designer, are identified in the book, History of Smith & Wesson by Roy Jinks. Also, Mr. Jinks and Sandra Krein authored a book, Images of America, Smith & Wesson, that identifies many of the employees and their roles at the company.

Bill

Hey Bill;

I imagined the story of the .357 development citing D.B. Wesson, Phil Sharpe and Elmer, would be among the first replies to my question, if not the very first. The next in line predictably, the .44 Magnum story. These are perhaps two of the best known. But arguably, those accounts are more about cartridge advances and less about the workers who crafted the devices that make them go bang. There must be a long backstory of lesser known, but equally important contributors, exclusive of those celebrated characters you mention. Thanks for firing the first round on this interesting subject's discussion.

Cheers;
Lefty

Edited to add:

And yes....Joe Norman was responsible for several important designs. Many of the "new" auto loading pistols in particular. The Model 39 and later, the Model 59.

 

[Doc44]

I am sure you are correct. However, there is little published on this subject and it would be interesting to know who did what in producing some of the revolvers and pistols cherished by collectors of today.

Roy Jinks, Historian of S&W and Chairman of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association, may be able to publish a book that addresses your question, but he is so busy, it would certainly be on the back burner.

I know many of S&W's revolvers and pistols were made up in their tool room prior to going into production....I have the only known prototype 44 Magnum that was made in S&W's tool room in January 1955 after the design of the revolver was completed. I have no idea who actually assembled the revolver. C. G. Peterson, Manager of Products Services at Remington, did the cartridge development on the 44 Magnum and used one or two experimental 1950 Target 44s that were chambered in 44 Magnum to do the work. These important revolvers are "lost to history".

Bill

 

[M29since14]

...In the 1950s, Carl R. Hellstrom, President of S&W from 1946 -1963, was instrumental in bringing out many of the guns we know today, namely, the 1950 Target 44 and 45, the 1955 Target 45, the 44 Magnum, the Combat Magnum, etc.

As one who is mainly interested in post-war S&Ws, I have always held this opinion but without any facts to back it up. My assumption was/is that in any corporation of that size, particularly one in that era, leadership generally came from the top down, so I have always reasoned that the revolvers most dear to me might very well not be here without Mr. Hellstrom and his evident enthusiasm for his work.

Looking back now, without the benefit of any first-hand knowledge, and obviously through "rose-colored glasses," I certainly feel like I owe him no small debt of gratitude for all the enjoyment I have gotten out of those great "products" over the years - and still do!

(Edit) I think of that time as a golden era in revolver-making - perhaps the final significant era. There are still very interesting things going on with revolvers these days, but it is distressing to me to see how "political" concerns have dampened the enthusiasm for these developments, whereas the same ones, had they happened in the '50s and '60s, might have been considered momentous.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

I am sure you are correct. However, there is little published on this subject and it would be interesting to know who did what in producing some of the revolvers and pistols cherished by collectors of today.

Roy Jinks, Historian of S&W and Chairman of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association, may be able to publish a book that addresses your question, but he is so busy, it would certainly be on the back burner.

I know many of S&W's revolvers and pistols were made up in their tool room prior to going into production.

Bill

I'd surely conclude that such a book, or even perhaps a brief scholarly paper addressing this subject would be of tremendous interest for many of us. Maybe the title "Who Was In The Dynasty Tool Room?....A Treatise On S&W's Design Innovator's 1896 To 1961."

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[Club Gun Fan]

I have the only known prototype 44 Magnum that was made in S&W's tool room in January 1955 after the design of the revolver was completed.
Doc
I have an unfired 500 Magnum, wanna swap?

 

[walnutred]

You guys are looking at the high profile improvements and overlooking the item that once adopted separated S&W from all the competition.

Who came up with the idea of the under barrel locking lug?

 

[Doc44]

Don...No thanks, I will keep the 44. I have an unfired, Class B-engraved Model 500 with a bright polish finish.

Bill

 

[Doc44]

walnutred...I don't know who thought of it, but it occurred sometime around 1905 with introduction of the "new" 38 M&P Revolver. There may be an engineering directive with the information on it, but where it might be is anyone's guess.

Bill

 

[walnutred]

walnutred...I don't know who thought of it, but it occurred sometime around 1905 with introduction of the "new" 38 M&P Revolver. There may be an engineering directive with the information on it, but where it might be is anyone's guess.

Bill

Isn't the lug what seperates a 1899 from a 1902?

 

[mikepriwer]

Charlie Call and Fred Miller are two names that come to mind.
Here is a letter from Roy about Charlie Call.

Another important innovator of the period was Ed McGivern. While not a factory employee, he was
the creator of the McGivern Gold Bead front sight. A variant of the 5" 38/44 is named after him:
The McGivern Model.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

Charlie Call and Fred Miller are two names that come to mind.
Here is a letter from Roy about Charlie Call.

Another important innovator of the period was Ed McGivern. While not a factory employee, he was
the creator of the McGivern Gold Bead front sight. A variant of the 5" 38/44 is named after him:
The McGivern Model.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Now that's what we've been waiting for....well done Mike, your a dependable scholar! C'mon boys, there's more to the story. Who else....what else?

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[Oyeboteb]

They way it seems to me, is that 97 percent of the entire K and N Frame products' design, of the 20th Century and now into the 21st, were in place in the Model of 1899 M&P and in the 2nd Model Hand Ejector of 1914.

The advent of the .357 and .44 Magnums hardly represent more than a minute contributution to a Revolver design which already existed, which was at most only very slightly adapted or modified for the more powerful Cartridges.

So if say 97 percent of the present day design was in place by 1899 and 1914 respectively, for the K and N Frames, how big of a deal can we make of the 3 percent which has been added? - while forgetting apparently, that someone or several someones developed the designs in the first place?

Those are the fellows I wish I knew more about...


Otherwise, I am aware of no improvements which are of any material or other value to me, having occurred, since maybe, 1902 for the K Frame, and, since 1914, for the N Frame...other than the improved Metalurgy of the Magnums for their ability to manage the higher pressure Cartridges on a sustained ( rather than incidental ) basis.

 

[Hondo44]

Two names that come to mind are

1. Henry who worked for S&W in the days of the Volcanic pistols and rifles eventually went to Oliver Winchester with the rights and patents, and is famous for the Henry lever action rifle and Henry RF cartridge for it. Although Winchester owned and manufactured the Henry, he did not put his name on it until the improved model, the Model '66 Winchester.

2. According to legend, The Safety Hammerless, New Departure, Lemon Squeezer was the brainchild of D. B. Wesson himself and his son Joe in a night-long session after hearing of a child hurt when handling a S&W revolver.

I'd like to know who came up with the 3rd lock of the .44 Military Model of 1908, New Century, A.K.A. Triple Lock.

 

[CptCurl]

I would be interested to know the impetus behind the change from the long action to the short throw hammer, and also the incorporation of the positive hammer block. Those seem to me to be the most significant design changes following the Second Model H.E.

Who decided that having the hammer blocked by the trigger return slide wasn't safe enough? On being dropped was there a significant risk the hammer nose would shear off and result in contact with the primer? Was a particular accident the driving force here?

Who was dissatisfied with the long hammer arc of the Second Model? Why did the Second Model hammer have such a long arc in the first place?

Development of the .357 and .44 Magnum revolvers didn't really involve a change in design so much as strengthening an existing design. I see those developments more in terms of achieving maximum potential from the existing mechanical design and not as a new development in itself.

Interesting thread. No doubt my questions have been answered before; possibly on this forum, and probably in print. Forgive my ignorance. I am not quite the in-depth scholar of S&W as others.

Curl

 

[kwill1911]

I would add Walter Roper to the list, not just for stock/grip innovations, which influenced S&W stocks, but also for his design innovations in sights and triggers.

Many of the post-war changes in both Colt and S&W revolvers were the result of adapting D.W. King's innovations. He originated things like the vented rib, the short action, wide spur hammers, better sights, etc.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

 

[TripleLock]

Who came up with the idea of the under barrel locking lug?

Daniel B. Wesson. He was granted U.S. Patent No. 689,260 for a "Revolving Firearm" on December 17, 1901. The application for this patent was filed on May 18, 1901.

I'd like to know who came up with the 3rd lock of the .44 Military Model of 1908, New Century, A.K.A. Triple Lock.

And again, Daniel B. Wesson. On December 3, 1901, he was granted U.S. Patent No.688,141 for a "Locking Device for Cylinder Yokes in Revolvers". The application for this patent was filed on June 14, 1901.

Jim

Edit: From searching the records of the U.S. Patent office, at least for the years between 1884 and 1917 (the range of patent years stamped on the revolvers themselves), it turns out that with VERY few exceptions the development, modifications, and improvements to the entire Hand Ejector line came from the minds of Daniel B. Wesson and/or Joseph H. Wesson. The only other names I have thus far uncovered associated with related patents are John L. Hobbs, Charles M. Stone, and Edward S. Pomeroy.

 

[Hondo44]

I would be interested to know the impetus behind the change from the long action to the short throw hammer, and also the incorporation of the positive hammer block. Those seem to me to be the most significant design changes following the Second Model H.E.

Who decided that having the hammer blocked by the trigger return slide wasn't safe enough? On being dropped was there a significant risk the hammer nose would shear off and result in contact with the primer? Was a particular accident the driving force here?
Curl

Curl,
I'll leave the the short hammer to someone else but the improved hammer block safety is an easy one : the government. They didn't design it but they were the impetus for it when a US sailor was killed with a .38 Victory model that was dropped on board his ship.

Most all Victory models manufactured at the time were recalled by Smith and retrofitted with the new hammer block safety. All subsquent manufactured Victorys and eventually all post war guns were so eguipped.

 

[CptCurl]

Curl,
I'll leave the the short hammer to someone else but the improved hammer block safety is an easy one : the government. They didn't design it but they were the impetus for it when a US sailor was killed with a .38 Victory model that was dropped on board his ship.

Most all Victory models manufactured at the time were recalled by Smith and retrofitted with the new hammer block safety. All subsquent manufactured Victorys and eventually all post war guns were so eguipped.

Interesting information. Thanks for the reply.