Is Your 3rd Gen FTE'ing? Check your mags....

[Silversmok3]

Here's the story: I spotted online a round trigger guard 5906 with rabbit ear sights two months ago and was very excited to pick it up at my local FFL.

Only to have it jam twice as pictured below every other magazine. I then ran it rapid fire twice and went 30 rounds before , like a striptease, she jammed again on the last round.Disappointment doesn't quite capture my feelings-I owned a 4506 that NEVER failed, and heard only good things about 3rd Generation reliability.

So I called S&W, and they said that because I was not the original owner I would have to pay out of pocket about $80 for shipping and repair if the problem was extractor related.Three phone calls didn't change the answer, so I figured for that much money I could order a new recoil spring and see if that was the issue.

Took it back out to the range with the new recoil spring...and had 1 FTE on the last round in the magazine.

Bah Humbug!

Then I noticed something off about how the 9mm FMJ rounds were stacking in the mag the gun came with.On a hunch I loaded a mag of ammo and stripped each round off with my thumb ....and the second to last round in the mag nose dived.

Today a brand new magazine just came in the mail, and here's the comparison between the new magazine and the one the weapon came with. All in all the real question I am left with is how the heck this pistol even fired as well as it did.

Moral of the story, before sending in your misbehaving Third Gen pistol to S&W make sure the magazine isn't the problem. Or your recoil spring either for that matter.That old spring was not in good shape either,which says something about S&W quality when a gun can still feed 13 of 15 rounds with a **** recoil spring and shot magazine.

 

[Shadow1006]

Well it appears your gun was telling you she needed some tender love and care...Replace the follower and you'll be good to go! MidwayUSA, Brownells, S&W may have them in stock.

Replacing mag springs may be in order as well, Wolff Gun Springs should be of interest for you spring needs!

 

[gboling]

I had a similar problem with a new 4566 TSW. Someone on here pointed out that S&W shipped a number of magazines with the springs in backwards. Proper instalation of the springs corrected the problem.

 

[handgunner356]

Well I hope that helps, but your picture is that of a double feed and that is caused by failure of the empty to be extracted. I'm afraid your extractor is still going to need some attention.

 

[Silversmok3]

Well I hope that helps, but your picture is that of a double feed and that is caused by failure of the empty to be extracted. I'm afraid your extractor is still going to need some attention.

I disagree.

I field stripped the weapon and stuck an empty casing under the extractor to check for tension and the spent casing wasn't wobbly or loose.

My theory is the weak mag spring misfeeds the next round, resulting in the spent case catching the top of the next round in the magazine and stopping the ejection process.Slide lets go of the casing and catches the back of the next round causing the compound failure.

Notice the casing in the picture has a chunk of brass taken out near the extractor.This theory also explains the intermittent nature of the jams-if the extractor was bad this would happen every time no matter what condition the weapon was in.

 

[5906fan]

dropping a mag on concrete floor at a run&gun can really mess up feed lips. some careful work with small sheet metal pliers and a new spring and follower may salvage that mag.

 

[ColColt]

I disagree.

I field stripped the weapon and stuck an empty casing under the extractor to check for tension and the spent casing wasn't wobbly or loose.

My theory is the weak mag spring misfeeds the next round, resulting in the spent case catching the top of the next round in the magazine and stopping the ejection process.Slide lets go of the casing and catches the back of the next round causing the compound failure.

Notice the casing in the picture has a chunk of brass taken out near the extractor.This theory also explains the intermittent nature of the jams-if the extractor was bad this would happen every time no matter what condition the weapon was in.

That's not the way to check for tension. You need to use a live or dummy round with a 230 gr bullet in the case. Just using a spent case won't tell you about the tension.

 

[gc70]

I had the same problem with my 5906; here is the description I sent to LSG (S&W warranty center):

It periodically fails to extract a fired round, usually leaving the casing fully in the chamber while trying to feed the next round. It has the same problem with all five of my magazines - S&W 15-round, S&W 10-round and Mec-Gar 17-round - even after I replaced the followers and springs on the 15-rounders, bought a new 17-rounder, and replaced the recoil spring.

My 5906 runs 100% after Frank replaced the extractor spring.

 

[Dot_mdb]

Used mags

I've stopped buying used mags. Typically they will cost about $14. When you add up the cost of changing out the internals the total cost is getting close to a brand new mag. Of course when you buy a used gun you will get one or two mags. I have had reasonable luck with those but they will usually need at least springs. I've just made the decision that I only need about 4 mags per gun and buying two or three new mags is not that big of a deal.

A couple of years ago I bought a 4506. The gun shot well with no issues but the mag spring was obviously weak. I was surprised that there were no feed problems. The difference in tension between the old and new spring was dramatic. The fact that the gun still worked with the bad springs shows just how well these guns are designed.

Bill

 

[Jhp147]

I also can't help but think you have an extractor issue first. Maybe a magazine spring issue hiding. If your new magazine fixes it, I'd replace springs/followers in the old ones just because they are cheaper than a whole new magazine, they look to need it, and they are a wear and service item. If it doesn't fix it, take a close look at the extractor for chips/burrs, compare it to another gun's extractor that you know works if you can. The extractor tension and fitting on these guns is checked with a dial tension gauge and set of bar go/no go gauges. Never heard anyone say before that you could do it like you do a 1911 with a cartridge...live or spent casing. Some of the 5906s got out of the factory with an out of spec cut for the extractor, which I have not seen fixed at the armorer level, only the factory, though I have seen it drive an armorer nuts trying to stop a double feed by replacing the extractor repeatedly. This is all assuming you have ruled out bad reloads/swelled cases or something preventing a good extractor from pulling them to start with.
But if the new mag fixes it, I have learned something new.

 

[Fastbolt]

Well, I'm going to go with the possibility that a damaged/worn extractor, and/or a weakened spring, may be responsible. I've seen a fair number of such things as an armorer who helped support an increasingly aging inventory of early 3rd gen production 9mm's (approx 450+ guns).

Sure, magazine springs which are becoming weakened (or which become damaged) can certainly contribute to some puzzling feeding issues, as can worn recoil springs, for that matter.

S&W 3rd gen pistol armorers are still given 3 things to consider as the probable cause of Failures-to-Extract (Double Feeds) ... which are damaged/worn extractors, extractor springs & recoil springs.

As has been mentioned, replacing an extractor typically requires some fitting. replacing an extractor spring, especially in an older production 3rd gen 59XX, may require a different spring than that listed as the standard production spring, too.

This was generally due to older machining methods, some involving human operators during the machining, which could create some variances in tolerances, like the shape/depth of the extractor recess and the spring hole.

The proper spring tension was given as falling within a recommended range (checked with a force dial gauge), but sometimes a particular gun might require a different spring and might run best when the 'tension' was at one or other end of the standard range (or even outside it). This requires an experienced and skilled armorer, or preferably the attention of a factory tech or one of their authorized warranty centers.

Why not call S&W after their holiday break and ask about having your gun checked? It's a toss up whether they'll consider their lifetime warranty applicable to your vintage of pistol. Dunno. Might ask, though.

 

[Silversmok3]

Why not call S&W after their holiday break and ask about having your gun checked? It's a toss up whether they'll consider their lifetime warranty applicable to your vintage of pistol. Dunno. Might ask, though.

I did.

Three times.

Each response was the same: Since I'm not the original owner, tough cookies. Their estimate was about $80 worst case scenario to fix the issue.

I figured id take care of the simple stuff first such as the mag & recoil spring and see where that left me.If the weapon still malfunctions after the next trip to the range ( hopefully tomorrow) then off to S&W it goes.

Looking at the magazines its a pretty serious difference.The spring on the old mag isn't reversed.I also put a loaded 9mm into the disassembled slide to see if that changed things. Extractor still held the round securely.



It must be stated that when I took the weapon out to the range I over lubed it severely since it was bone dry when I took delivery-that's the black crud in the frame which is burnt carbon mixing with the excessive lube.

My course of fire was 4 magazines, the first two slow fire then the next two rapid fire as fast as I could pull the trigger. The FTE happened on the second to last round on mag #4 which is when I took the picture.

Cleared it, loaded another five rounds, no failures, loaded another 5 rounds and then I got an FTE. By then the interior and seams of the weapon had black oily crud oozing out.


Second range trip with the new recoil spring was two magazines, one FTE on the second to last round in the chamber on mag #2

We'll find out one way or another tomorrow, but if it were an extractor issue would it not jam more often?

 

[Fastbolt]

Each response was the same: Since I'm not the original owner, tough cookies. Their estimate was about $80 worst case scenario to fix the issue.

That's not unreasonable, for an older used pistol, not being used by the original owner, when it comes down to it. (Presuming it was even sold to the original owner when the lifetime warranty was implemented for commercial pistols.)

I also put a loaded 9mm into the disassembled slide to see if that changed things. Extractor still held the round securely.

Not how the tension is checked.

Even if the extractor isn't chipped or otherwise worn or damaged, the tension of the spring is checked with a force dial gauge. The 'reach' of the hook into the breech face is checked with a bar gauge, but it can't really tell you anything about the condition of the spring or it's strength. Not really.

During the beginning of the recoil cycle the extractor spring has to resist the recoil forces (during what I've heard called the 'moment of mass'), and it has to prevent the extractor from pivoting outward away from the case rim ... as the case rim is moving downward against the breech face as the barrel unlocks and drops. The speed and short duration of this moment when the recoil forces are acting on the extractor (and its mass), as well as against its spring (tension), mean the spring's strength has to be carefully balanced with the design and mass of the extractor (and its pivot point).

... but if it were an extractor issue would it not jam more often?

Not necessarily.

Not when the spring was just starting to become "too weak".

Not if it were just reaching the point where it was only just dropping below its optimal tension range.

Also, it could easily be aggravated and influenced by how much of a 'hold' the chamber had on the fired case, too. This could include influences such as a clean/dirty chamber, an older chamber on the tight end of the normal spec range (and the chamber angle was slightly changed at one point during 59XX TSW production, FWIW), as well as ammunition tolerance issues.

In a number of our older & well-used early production 5903's & 6906's, we might sometimes notice a single failure-to-extract occur during a course of fire. More often than not it seemed to be a shooter maintenance (dirty chamber, lack of lubrication, etc) issue, or less often maybe an ammunition issue, (low powered, case/QC issue, things like that). Checking the extractor & its tension didn't reveal a problem in those sort of instances.

In the instances involving an extractor spring just staring to drop below the low end of the tension needed for normal functioning, we might see 2 or 3 FTE's. (More than a single FTE always got my attention, since the 3rd gen guns are known for their reliability. Even if the gun was really dirty and neglected, I'd still take the gun off the line and check the extractor and its spring.)

In those instances when I often observed only a couple of FTE's (out of anywhere from 1-2 mag loads, or even at the end of a course of fire involving upwards of 50 rounds), when I checked the extractor and its spring I'd start to find that the old springs would be giving 'readings' on the dial gauge below the recommended tension.

If it were me, and it was an older 3rd gen gun brought to me for diagnosis, if the mag & recoil springs hadn't been replaced within the last several thousand rounds, that's the first thing I'd do (especially since a weakened or damaged recoil spring can create conditions which could cause FTE's).

Naturally, I'd also inspect the extractor hook. As extractors age in well-used guns they can become work-hardened, and start to become brittle, which could lead to chipping or significant breakage. Here's an older 3rd gen extractor which finally broke, next to the current revision design.

I've had older 3rd gen guns which developed chipping in the hook that would still provide reliable extraction, though, which speaks well for the design of the guns. I only found the chipping because I was cleaning and inspecting the guns after they had been used (reliably) for qual and practice sessions (one such was an issued 6906 I was using, with over 12K rounds fired on it by me, and it was previously issued before I got it).

... with the new recoil spring was two magazines, one FTE on the second to last round in the chamber on mag #2

Unless a momentary shooter grip problem, and/or a dirty barrel or ammunition issue were also clouding the issue, I'd be inclined to suspect an extractor and/or extractor spring issue.

Unless someone was doing a lot of shooting (like myself), or abusing the guns (failing to lubricate, loading the chamber directly instead of from a magazine) we didn't typically start to see an increase in the number of damaged extractors and weakened extractor springs until our guns had started reaching the 12-16+ year point, which I think is pretty good for used & abused service weapons.

It finally reached the point that I started to replace both the extractor & its spring and the ejectors when extractors were exhibiting chipping/breakage, or springs just became too worn and weak. The ejector works just as hard as the extractor, and has to do its job each time the slide is cycled (just like the extractor & its spring), right?

If the gun is returned to the factory, I'd ask them to give it a complete inspection (which they'd typically do, anyway), and ask for any older parts to be upgraded with new parts (such as if your ejector is the older, original design).

Just some thoughts.

 

[Silversmok3]

Fastbolt's hypothesis is correct.

I took the 5906 out today and went through a 50 round box of Winchester ammo with zero failures.

After that I loaded 5 rounds per mag and had this happen at round #55

Loaded another 5, and it jammed on the first shot.

Fired the remaining rounds, loaded another five, and it jammed on the first shot again. Once cleared I shot another 7 rounds through it for a total of 73 rounds with three failures.

Im sending it to S&W for repair once I get back home.According to them the build date was November 1990, so odds are the extractor is done.

The money doesn't affect me, so much as the idea of being without my 3rd Gen for at least a month.

In lighter news, when the gun did work it shot rather accurately when I did my part.Range distance was 50 feet.

 

[jlw]

I had a 5906TSW that I bought used. I had some issues develop with it during a class. S&W sent a call tag for it, repaired, and sent it back to me all free of charge. Turns out there was something wrong with the chamber, and they replaced the barrel.

I'm surprised they were going to charge you for the shipping and repair.

 

[Silversmok3]

I had a 5906TSW that I bought used. I had some issues develop with it during a class. S&W sent a call tag for it, repaired, and sent it back to me all free of charge. Turns out there was something wrong with the chamber, and they replaced the barrel.

I'm surprised they were going to charge you for the shipping and repair.

Yeah I was too. Three different representatives all asked me

" Are you the original owner?"

Upon hearing the word "No" they'd tell me the mailing address and to expect an estimate on work within two weeks of receipt of the firearm.When I asked about the warranty the representative said it only applied to the original owner.

If it costs money to fix, so be it. I'm still frustrated at the fact that after that 50 round box I was so happy my gun was working again, and as soon as I load another set of rounds..."jam". What a letdown.

 

[Dot_mdb]

It has been my experience that 50% of the used guns I buy have to go back to the factory for one reason or another. I don't get too upset by it, I expect it and use the trip back as an opportunity to get the whole gun checked out. I make sure I tell them to check it out thoroughly including the springs etc.

I don't buy the 3rd gens because they are cheap. I buy them because they are the guns that I want and they are not produced any longer. Investing a few dollars in the gun is worth it in the long run.

Bill

 

[OlympicFox]

It has been my experience that 50% of the used guns I buy have to go back to the factory for one reason or another. I don't get too upset by it, I expect it and use the trip back as an opportunity to get the whole gun checked out. I make sure I tell them to check it out thoroughly including the springs etc.

I don't buy the 3rd gens because they are cheap. I buy them because they are the guns that I want and they are not produced any longer. Investing a few dollars in the gun is worth it in the long run.

Bill

Exactly!

My wife has been shooting her Sig P6 and my Sig P226 Elite but still yearned for something else that 'fixed her'. Last week she discovered a nearly new 3913LS Lady Smith that did the job. She was anxious to get to the range the next day and was all smiles afterwards. I didn't even get a chance to shoot it, but I liked what I saw when I handled it and cleaned it to start the hunt for a 3913NL. I think I found a nice one, we'll find out when it arrives. Neither one was cheap. That's OK. We weren't looking for cheap.

She made another trip to the range yesterday and was still smiling - although some of that was because I gave her a new Sig P232 for Christmas. She's fired a couple of boxes of factory range stuff, some Ranger-T and Cor-Bon DPX as well as some IDPA hand loads. Functioned perfectly.

Regardless, each of them will be making a pilgrimage back to S&W for a thorough check up as well as action work.

They are excellent defensive guns and worth the effort and expense.

 

[Silversmok3]

This just gets better & better....

Well I got a line on a certified NRA gunsmith who took at look at the ailing 5906 this afternoon.

His analysis is that the extractor is the culprit- but the surprise is that is too tight.No physical problems with the extractor were mentioned, so the pin & spring are the primary actors in this drama.

The supporting cast is in the form of a botched effort by a previous gunsmith. Apparently at some point in the distant past a Gomer Pyle gunsmith peened out the ejector lever by hammering it flat in one spot to cover up the ejection issues.

In so doing the ejector lever is weakened so had I continued to shoot the 5906 in its current condition the ejector would have failed spectacularly. The words "ka boom" and "injury" were said by the professional upon his evaluation.

Since the repair will cost the same at his custom shop as it will at S&W -without the month or so wait -im having the work done here.

Ill post an update when I get the pistol back, good or bad news. Thanks for the advice and info mentioned so far on the subject, and ill reward your loyalty with my own when I get my baby back.

 

[Kavinsky]

actually just a quick personal question about the recoil springs, how do you get them off of the guide rod or the barrel without them draging and maring up the finish on the barrel or guide rod there on if they are draging?

and the reason why I'm asking is because the one on the kimber I have is doing just that, thankfully its stainless so you dont even notice the marks but on a blued gun it would probably show up so is there a trick to get it off without it doing that or a tool to prevent that?