Selecting range ammo and carry ammo for a 686 3"

[corgiS&W]

I just came from the range where I shot a box of their .357 125 gr. JHP reloads. I had to raise the rear sight 2 clicks to get the shots where I was getting them with PMC 158 gr. JSPs that the LGS included with my purchase of the 686. The target was at about 10-12 yards. Please help me avoid reinventing the wheel...What are some good combinations of ammo for practice and carry that will place about the same on a target at 10 yards? Last week I used some 158 gr. 38s from WalMart which were pretty close, and were cheaper than the 357 reloads.

I realize this will bring out many different personal favorites, but I guess that's what I want to see. TIA.

 

[Ashlander]

Just in general -- I stick to the same weight bullets -- that takes one of the big variables out of the equation.

 

[one eye joe]

Just in general -- I stick to the same weight bullets -- that takes one of the big variables out of the equation.

Try to get a practice ammo that will replicate the POI of your SD ammo, NOT THE REVERSE. Ashlander gives you a great starting point tip........

 

[DDDWho]

Velocity is the key to matching bullet performance. If you dropped a bullet of the same weight at the same time you fired one from a gun on a level plain they would both hit the ground at the same time. Outward thrust does not offset the pull of gravity. IMO you should match ballistics as close as possible.

 

[sourdough44]

I'd be mostly shooting 38's in that 3" barrel. I'd use some better 38 '+p' for carry, test them out 1st of course.

 

[corgiS&W]

I'd be mostly shooting 38's in that 3" barrel. I'd use some better 38 '+p' for carry, test them out 1st of course.

I did notice that there was very little difference between the recoil of the .38+ps and the .357s. Why do you suggest the former over the latter for carry?

 

[corgiS&W]

Try to get a practice ammo that will replicate the POI of your SD ammo, NOT THE REVERSE. Ashlander gives you a great starting point tip........

Both are good points [same weight & SD as the standard]. Now, how do I go about choosing the best SD ammo for this revolver? I assume I statrt with 158 gr. JHP, but how important is the brand? Would practice ammo of the same brand be the place to start? This is new ground for me.

 

[Badge54]

Can of worms!

I carry the 340pd and LCR both in .357 but stoke with Critical Defense .38+p. I like the technology behind the bullet and have confidence that it will perform under different conditions...

The .38+p out of the short barrels comes within 50fps of .357 loads. Not enough velocity to make me carry the louder boomers, bigger recoil and more muzzle blast. There is probably a few more fps/ advantage to .357... between them in a 3 inch barrel.

I bet it's easier and funner at the range to find loads that shoot to similar points of aim with a .38 then in .357.

.38 loads will be cheaper to practice with than .357. = more practice!

What is "two clicks" at 12 yards? Zero your defense loads and don't worry if your off and inch or two with practice loads. If your shooting that slow to see the POI difference than your shooting too slow.

All said... If your carrying full house loads you should be practicing with full house loads. Or at least something that replicates it. Don't run big boomers and practice with cowboy loads... Murphy will rear his head.

Badge54

 

[old bear]

I did notice that there was very little difference between the recoil of the .38+ps and the .357s. Why do you suggest the former over the latter for carry?

There should be a whole world of difference between a 38 special +P and a .357 Magnum round, if not something is wrong.
I only shoot assorted .357 Magnum ammo in my revolvers, yet I do sight for my carry ammo which is a stout 158Gr. LSWC load.

 

[XTrooper]

There should be a whole world of difference between a 38 special +P and a .357 Magnum round, if not something is wrong.

This is 100% correct. Further, I have never seen any sense in buying a .357 Magnum revolver and then loading, shooting, and especially carrying it with .38 Special ammo.

I "could" buy a car with a V-8 engine, toss out two of its plug wires, and run it as a V-6, but it would make more sense and be a lot smarter to simply buy a V-6 in the first place!

To the OP: Out to 25 yards or so, the difference in POI for most .357 Magnum factory loads won't be great enough to worry about and no bad guy will ever notice the difference.

 

[roaddog28]

I have used CCI Blazer 158 gr HP for practice with my 686-2 4 inch. Very accurate if I do my job. If you decide to use 357 magnums for self defense, I like the Winchester Silvertips 145 gr HP. They have a good record.
Good luck,
Howard

 

[one eye joe]

To the OP: Out to 25 yards or so, the difference in POI for most .357 Magnum factory loads won't be great enough to worry about and no bad guy will ever notice the difference.

IF you are a civilian with a CCW permit and shoot someone @ a distance of 25 yards, unless you were fired upon first, YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL ! ! ! Your permit allows you to defend yourself if you are in fear of your life, not to engage a target when other options are available to you. At an appropriate SD distance the POI of a similar grained practice and carry ammo ain't gonna amount to much. Windage will be the same. Vertical distance may differ slightly. The slower moving bullet will strike higher because it will be in the barrel longer and will exit when the muzzle has traveled higher in it's recoil induced arc. (the bullet may travel slower because it weighs more or if it fires with less pressure--ie--regular .38Spl vs .38Spl+P vs .357Mag will string downward with the .38Spl at the top, the +P in the middle and the .357Mag at the bottom, if all were fired with the same 158gr bullet ) In ANY EVENT, within 15 feet or less--armed robbery distance--it ain't gonna mean SQUAT. Zero your weapon with the most powerful ammo that you can make REPEAT SHOTS with. Then practice with something similar in a simulated draw and fire scenario at a reasonable self defense distance. If your range does not allow for such practice, just know where your POI is in relation to your weapon zeroed at SD distance w/ your carry ammo and work to keep your groups tight @ the distance you are allowed to shoot at.

 

[ElectroMotive]

IF you are a civilian with a CCW permit and shoot someone @ a distance of 25 yards, unless you were fired upon first, YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL ! ! ! Your permit allows you to defend yourself if you are in fear of your life, not to engage a target when other options are available to you. At an appropriate SD distance the POI of a similar grained practice and carry ammo ain't gonna amount to much. Windage will be the same.

Malarkey.

You dont get the luxury of deciding what distance an encounter may come. I can be in fear of my life at 25 meters just as easily as I can at 15, 7, or contact distances. While it may be possible to run, it doesnt mean you can escape, and you cant out run bullets, not that you have a duty to in the first place.

Gunfights arent scripted, they are fluid and dynamic. Bad guys have a say in what goes down. There may be one opponent, or 6, or more. They or you, may be behind a car door or laminated autoglass. Hence its best to pick a bullet that not only meets, but exceeds FBI criteria. Right now the only bullet in .357mag that does is the 140gr Barnes bullet loaded by Federal.. In .38spec there are three choices; 135gr+p Speer Gold Dot, 110+p Barnes X, and 110(+) Hornady CD.

 

[XTrooper]

IF you are a civilian with a CCW permit and shoot someone @ a distance of 25 yards, unless you were fired upon first, YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL ! ! ! Your permit allows you to defend yourself if you are in fear of your life, not to engage a target when other options are available to you.

Actually, this depends entirely on the circumstances AND the venue. For instance, if someone engages you with a firearm in an open field with no cover at 30 yards, you'd better be willing and able to return fire. In regard to the venue you live in, I'll give the example of my adopted state of Pennsylvania. Here in PA, when threatened with deadly force, we have no legal obligation to retreat from anywhere we are entitled to legally be whether it be a home, a vehicle, a store, or a street corner.

 

[blujax01]

Um...Malarky makes some interesting statements but getting back to the OP's question:

Others have touched on the obvious. If you can afford it, practice with what you will carry. If you cannot, weight is the primary driver at 5-21 feet and you really should use the gun in a manner for which it was designed. It is chambered in .357. My advise is to use .357 ammo of a similar weight to the SD ammo you intend to carry.

Which SD ammo? That's a whole 'nother conversation.

 

[one eye joe]

It ain't quite "malarky", ElectroMotive. The VAST majority of CCW combat occurs @ short distances (under 7 yards), and is over without a reload. I didn't make that up--I learned it from Massad Ayoob. While ANYTHING is possible, IMHO the chances of an ordinary citizen (not a gangbanger) facing "6 or more opponents" is far fetched. In over 50 years of shooting and reading about weapons and gunfights, and over 30 years of training people as an NRA Certified Instructor, I can't remember coming across even ONE such incident. (doesn't mean that there isn't one--BUT it is rare). In any event, I like your choices of ammo. I carry a 686+ and a 642 loaded with Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P, AND 12 additional rounds in 2 Bianchi Speed Strips everyday. Your "duty" in a hostile confrontation is governed by the laws of the jurisdiction wherein the incident occurs, and may depend upon such factors as the existence and extent of "the Castle Doctrine".

 

[XTrooper]

It ain't quite "malarky", ElectroMotive. The VAST majority of CCW combat occurs @ short distances (under 7 yards), and is over without a reload. I didn't make that up--I learned it from Massad Ayoob. While ANYTHING is possible, IMHO the chances of an ordinary citizen (not a gangbanger) facing "6 or more opponents" is far fetched. In over 50 years of shooting and reading about weapons and gunfights, and over 30 years of training people as an NRA Certified Instructor, I can't remember coming across even ONE such incident. (doesn't mean that there isn't one--BUT it is rare). In any event, I like your choices of ammo. I carry a 686+ and a 642 loaded with Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P, AND 12 additional rounds in 2 Bianchi Speed Strips everyday. Your "duty" in a hostile confrontation is governed by the laws of the jurisdiction wherein the incident occurs, and may depend upon such factors as the existence and extent of "the Castle Doctrine".

I concur.

Though it's becoming an all too common occurrence in police/bad guy(s) encounters, having to reload in a civilian setting is rare. That said, "better safe than sorry" is the adage of the day and I always carry two reloads and/or two handguns whenever I venture out.

 

[Infidel]

I carry the FBI load -- 158gr .38Spl LSWCHP+P -- in my 3" 686+ and use Georgia Arms 158gr copper jacketed rounds for range practice. They shoot to the same POI.

 

[one eye joe]

I like that Georgia Arms round myself........

 

[ElectroMotive]

It ain't quite "malarky", ElectroMotive. The VAST majority of CCW combat occurs @ short distances (under 7 yards), and is over without a reload.
I didn't make that up--I learned it from Massad Ayoob.

If you didnt make anything up cite case law, or for that matter penal code that has distances mapped out. It doesnt matter what Massad Ayoob says, because to be quite frank, I dont trust him at all.

You go ahead and train for 7 yards and no reload. I'll train for the worst and hope for the best.

While ANYTHING is possible, IMHO the chances of an ordinary citizen (not a gangbanger) facing "6 or more opponents" is far fetched. In over 50 years of shooting and reading about weapons and gunfights, and over 30 years of training people as an NRA Certified Instructor, I can't remember coming across even ONE such incident. (doesn't mean that there isn't one--BUT it is rare).

Here in Texas a CHL holder fired in defense of a Dallas cop from 75 meters away. No charges. In the "Arizona" a man used a SA Ruger in .44mag to stop a home invasion, firing at the last badguy at over 50 meters. My neighbor in Dallas used a Colt Trooper to shoot at a fleeing car, firing 6 rounds, at well in excess of 75 meters. No charges. Also here in Dallas, 4 years ago a guy fended off a home invasion, killing 5 of 6 armed and ARMORED badguys with a Polish AKMS (AK underfolder). No charges. Able Walton in West Dallas, fired in defense of his property 3 times in one week, killing 3 bad guys. No charges. You might claim, "well thats Texas", but you must realize we have a liberal DA, liberal sheriff, liberal police chief, etc. Island of blue in a sea of red. All of these events happened in the last decade

Keep and Bear Arms - Gun Owners Home Page - 2nd Amendment Supporters keeps a fairly accurate list of self and home defense shootings. Multiple assailants are in almost half the shootings they report on.

The big crime story in Houston, TX is the alarming amount of home invasions and muggings taking place with multiple armed men, wearing police style uniforms, and body armor. KHOU TV is the source.

In any event, I like your choices of ammo. I carry a 686+ and a 642 loaded with Speer 135gr Gold Dot +P, AND 12 additional rounds in 2 Bianchi Speed Strips everyday. Your "duty" in a hostile confrontation is governed by the laws of the jurisdiction wherein the incident occurs, and may depend upon such factors as the existence and extent of "the Castle Doctrine".

I agree your duty is to adhere to the laws set in place. That said I've never seen a law that states shooting in defense at 25 yards will get you thrown in jail. For that matter I've never seen a law that states distances at all.