Military Discipline

[kudzu3]

Being a veteran, I respect all military personnel in all branches of the US Military. That said, I'm wondering what happened to military discipline. Where are the sharp dressed troops we used to see in the dress uniforms? Is camo the only issued uniform now? What happened to the "sir" and "Ma'am"? Where is the sharp salute we used to see? I remember when troops were interviewed, the up-right, chin up stance was common, where is it now? Why do we see so many covers worn in the house or no cover outside? I guess I could go on and on but I think the point is made. It just ain't like it used to be. Please don't scold me for not respecting our military, I have as much respect for these fine folks as anybody, just wondering if anyone else has noticed this change. Of course it's been a long time since I was there, '67-'71, maybe I'm just too old to understand.

 

[24spenser]

The two of us were probably in AF during similar times. You could not even wear fatigues off base back then. That being said, I'm going to conclude that the rules are different during 'time of war'.

 

[squidsix]

No offense taken, and this Chief agrees 100% with your observations.
The proliferance of the camo uniforms is amazing. Right this minute there are more than 15 different patterns of camoflague available/required for US troops. I personally have to maintain six different TYPES of camo. You will not see me, or any members of my unit, sloppy, lazy, or disrespectful. You will see some folks who maintain razor sharp uniforms and personal appearance, and some who look like total dirtbags. Blame not the military for this, but American society in general. I have been doing this for 16 years, and I can tell you that garbage in equals garbage out. We get some kids who get straightened out here, but mostly, the quality of the person is what determines the quality of the Sailor/Soldier/Marine/Airman. The mothers and fathers of this country determine the level of excellence of this modern military. I have the finger pointed firmly at myself for my son's behavior and performance. Should he turn out poorly, it's my problem. The US Military won't be able to fix ALL of my mistakes.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Society is changing. I see kids walking to high school dressed worse then I did going to work on the farm (in the early 60's). If I had gone to HS dressed like this I would have been sent home.

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

When I was in 72-76, you couldn't wear dungaree's off base, in fact I got my Chief in trouble because she was wearing dungarees to work because of a dirty project she had to do, I thought that was cra* you can change at work, you have to look sharp.

Now even the Navy is Camo, give me the old chambray's.

I will bet you are not even allowed to "tack" on someone's Crow anymore!

 

[squidsix]

Well, you aren't "allowed" to do a lot of things. Some communities respond differently to these rules, of course.
You never could wear dungarees off base, or the utility uniform that followed it. However, the smurf suit we wear now is allowed off base, as is the multicam. I see these guys flying on commercial airplanes in their camo and I think, "he has a SHOOT ME FIRST sign on him".

 

[mtb1bkr]

Over the last 10 years, recruiting standards for all branches of the military were lowered to allow the recruiting goals to be met for increasing the end strength of the services. During this time, there were lots of young men and women who would not quailfy now or in the 90s to get in. Now that we are trimming the fat, a lot of these "lucky" ones who slipped through the cracks will be getting thier walking papers when their enlistment is up and they don't qualify to reenlist due to poor performance.

The Marines only have 2 camo patterns, desert and green, and they are not allowed to be worn off base anywhere these days other than in your car to and from work. We prefer to keep a low profile, as opposed to wearing them everywhere, to include on commercial airlines, which still baffles me.

Bill

 

[Goldstar225]

I'll have to disagree to some extend with the bash on "today's generation". I began my career in 1974 while we still had a few carry overs from the draft era. Drug use was so rampant that those who self identified were given a change at rehab and a career change (you couldn't remain in Security Police with drug history). Those caught with personal use amount were disciplined and retrained.

Fast forward a few years and the overall quality of people went up, drug use rates dropped and consequences increased (users discharged). In units with high but achievable expectations and discipline, good things happened.

If the "new breed" are failing it's because supervisors who are supposed to lead and grow their young military members are failing them. They are not instilling in them pride in unit, team and self. If we now have leaders who do not possess those qualities, who failed to develop them or choses to keep them in those positions? Their leaders, that's who. Most of our young members in the military can be expected to perform to the level that is expected of them. Some will exceed the standard because that's their nature but most people, in or out of the military, will only perform to the level that is demanded of them.

Squidsix By your words you are a prime example of good leadership. You have high expectations of your people and enforce it.

 

[J. W.]

Society is changing. I see kids walking to high school dressed worse then I did going to work on the farm (in the early 60's). If I had gone to HS dressed like this I would have been sent home.

This pretty much it. Society as a whole has changed. Manners and any sense of formality, class and dignity has greatly diminished. Its all about being "comfortable" and relaxed. Personally, I've never found a suit and tie, or class A uniform to be uncomfortable. It seems to cause people physical pain to have to clean up a little. A tie is certianly asking too much...

Several months ago I began the testing process for a new department. I was the only applicant to wear a suit to the initial written test. A few had polos and slacks on, but the majority were wearing what appear to be their cleaniest dirty clothes.

 

[Maximumbob54]

It only happens because it's allowed to happen.

 

[Pilgrim]

When I go to my Dad's WWII military reunions, (for 10 years or so now) the current and past Commanding General of the division are frequently asked to give a talk.

They most often wear camo to these pretty formal events.

I've become friendly with several of the Generals (have entertained them at my house) and frequently tell them I'll never get used to them wearing pajamas to events like that.

It just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[J Rich]

I would like to thank all of you Men for your service. I have never been in service do to my own lack of, lets just say I was was a dumb*** back in the day. My Grandfather was in Korea, we lost my Uncle in '71 in the army, my Cousin was in the AF in Desert Storm, and my Brother recently came home from the AF. I could not be anymore proud of my family.

I do see what you are saying, seems to be a lack of discipline. I have also noticed though people I work with and hang around with. I see a lot more whiners and crybabies, I don't say that to offend anyone. It's just that to me the the "older gen" is just happy to be home, happy to go to a "regular" job where bullets aren't flying over head. I don't see that today in SOME of our service Men and Women.

My Grandfather was a POW for 33 weeks in Korea, I know it messed him up. He nor any other of my family has felt like this country owed them something, like SOME of the "new gen" does.

I don't mean to offend anyone here. I feel the Men and Women of our Military deserve our respect and gratitude. I know freedom isn't free. Once again Thank You for your service and I mean everyone on this forum Military, LEOs, and FD.

 

[JJEH]

It only happens because it's allowed to happen.

Right.

There was a time were the Military needed people. Unfortunately too much people with too much of an "dark spot" in their lifes were allowed to join...

 

[OFT II]

When I was in the Army we wore starched green fatigues that were bloused above a pair of shiny black leather boots. Our belt buckle was polished and we often wore a scarf of the proper color around the neck with it tucked into the shirt. Even then we didn't dress like that to go off post.

That said, our military today may not look all that sharp but they sure do a fine job. I'm proud of them. By the way, I have three grandkids in the military, Army, Coast Guard and Marines.

 

[Iggy]

I don't want to come off as disagreeing with the OP and other posters here. I don't. I miss seeing the old spit an polish of military personnel in dress uniforms when they are off base, but I can tell you that under those BDU's and Fatigues or whatever they call them today, are some of the finest young men and women you will ever meet.

The old saying that clothes don't make the man or in this case woman, has never been more true than it is with our service men and women today.

They are spectacular.

 

[REM 3200]

It only happens because it's allowed to happen.

Right. It is up to the NCO Corps to enforce standards. The troops will respond to strong positive leadership.

 

[safearm]

Right. It is up to the NCO Corps to enforce standards. The troops will respond to strong positive leadership.

It's also up to the leaders to look and act like leaders. When the senior ranking officer on the base is always wearing a flight suit to work, even when he isn't flying, or even scheduled to fly, the troops get the impression that dressing casual is the norm.
If it sounds like I'm whining about the arrogant flyers in the Air Force, I'm not, I was one of them. I actively crewed an aircraft for 19 of my 28 years in the Air Force, and learned from a tough SAC Colonel who NEVER showed up in the office in a flight suit; he always wore some combination of the blue uniform. When he was going to fly, he went to the locker room and changed into his flight suit. After flying, he changed back into blues.
In my last assignment before I retired, I wore starched BDUs with spit-shined boots; todays Airmen's Battle Uniform is not allowed to be starched and the boots are a green, suede-like material that can't be shined.
While I admit that today's military members are some of the smartest people I have ever met, the leaders, at many levels, have let the appearance standards drop. You only get one time to make a good first impression.

 

[tripledipper]

In time of need a body is a body and you shape it the best you can to meet your minimum requirements. Quotas come and go and with them the quality of the individual who meets the current standard in force. As a peacetime voluntary draftee I certainly saw the many behavioral differences between those with US and RA serial numbers and you Vietnam era guys much more so.

 

[Dennis The B]

A lot of the Navy's changes started in the late 1960's, and early 1970's. As late as 1969, E-4's, and below, had to carry liberty cards, to prove one actually had the liberty. You never stopped on the way to and from the base/ship, unless you had on the uniform of the day (service dress blues/whites). No beards, and you had to have CO permission to grow a mustache, and you also had to be E-4/E-5, and above.

When Elmo Zumwalt became Chief of Naval Operations, he vowed to get rid of the "Mickey Mouse Regs" that didn't contribute to combat readiness. Away went the liberty cards; beards, mustaches, and longer sideburns were allowed; civilian clothes on board ship for all personnel; stops on the way to and from the base/ship in dungarees, or utilities; no proof of auto insurance, only attestation; and laxity in enforcing drug possession.

Granted, some of these issues weren't combat-aimed, but it also created laxity in some of the other areas which shouldn't have been eased.

My brother ran a Navy recruiting office in the mid-1980-s, and things had really changed back. They were turning down people who had speeding citations, and after the initial counseling for drug possessions, if one broke the regulations, out they went.

 

[mkk41]

I remember going to AO 'A' school in Memphis and E-1 thru E-3 needed a 'special privledges' card to wear civvies on or off base. You wore your dungaree working uniform during school/work or 'undress' blues/whites , whichever was appropriate. And your uniform , shoes , haircut had better be 4-0 squared away.

Years later , (stateside) we were not supposed to wear working uniforms or flight suits in public or off base , except going home and maybe a convenience store stop & shop.

And especially when overseas. We got warnings about being kidnapped or shot in Sicily if we wore our flightsuits off base.