"The Newhall Incident" 4 dead LEO's In 4 Minutes

In 1980 I was working for a city police department.
One of our officers got into a shootout with an armed robber in a convenience store; they both emptied their guns at each other shooting back and forth over the top of the clerks counter.
The bad guy ran out the door while our officer was crouched down trying to reload from his dump pouch.
The next week we were issued speedloaders.
 
If I recall the Ayoob narrative, one of the officers in the Newhall Tragedy had already been wounded, and was trying to reload his revolver, while crouched behind his vehicle. Range training in those days required officers to empty the brass into their hand, then shove the empties into tight pants pockets............so the range wasn't covered in spent brass. The officer should have dumped his spent cases on the ground to allow a faster reload, but he followed his training, and was trying to put the brass in his pocket when the bad guy outflanked him and shot him in the head.

Range rules changed soon after.

When I was a rookie in the early 80's, we trained at a private range owned by the city in a remote area. All stages with revolvers and shotguns involved firing until empty, then re-holstering empty guns and changing targets. It finally dawned on our supervisor that if someone with a grudge popped up unannounced and opened fire as soon as we stopped shooting, NO one there would be able to return fire. Speedloaders replaced dump pouches almost immediately.

Range rules changed soon after. Thankfully, before someone got killed over bad policy.
 
There are lessons learned from every shootout, shooting or officer injury. The problem is that every situation has a different element that changes the perspective or the plan of action.

Sadly officers do not receive the training today that they once did. Most no longer park a couple doors down from a crime in progress or a domestic call. That alone gets a number of LE shot during the course of a year. Many are not POST certified to use the long guns in their car although most will never have the opportunity to use them.
 
BTW, at the time we still carried 158 ball ammo. Hollow point ammo did follow soon thereafter. Do not recall what that was exactly.
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When I first hired on, we were issued 158 gr RN, cast and reloaded by trustees...........I said "forget that", went home and fired up the reloader and carried 150 grn LSWCs. I still have that mold today (Lyman 358477). Carried it until I retired, and still use it in my CC pocket revolver.
 
Texas Star said:
Didn't that incident lead to wide use of revolver speedloaders?
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Yes it did. Much faster than struggling with reloading one or two at a time from belt loops, or dump pouches.

A little more awkward to carry, but not much. We started with the rubber Safariland ones that worked much better with a silicone spray coating. A few weeks back I found some of them in a box of old stuff.
 
S. Hammer said:
The calls you made would be considered low risk. Parking at the house to meet the citizen is not uncommon. Disturbances and alarms however require more caution. Best to park a few houses away and walk up so you can see and hear what's going on, and the people in the house don't see you pull up and start shooting at you.
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Okay, that makes sense.
 
The Big D said:
I was still in rookie school when speedloaders were first authorized for my organization, At the time we carried S&W Model 10's with 4" heavy barrels. Speedloaders were NOT issued but those of us then "buffs" hit the local blue vendor forthwith. Only ones then available (to the best of my knowledge) were those made by the Dade Screw Company. (Might not be exact name of company.) They were cylinders that were surrounded by a spring. Rounds were held at the primer end and pushed past the spring to load. Functional? Yes. Perfect? No. But better than drop pouches, for certain.

BTW, at the time we still carried 158 ball ammo. Hollow point ammo did follow soon thereafter. Do not recall what that was exactly.

Good Morning:
I remember the "Dade Speedloaders". If dropped, all six rounds flew in six directions!
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I carried Dades for years. Still have them in fact.
 
I started in LE in the spring of 1971. We were issued revolvers that would get you killed, junk Colt Police Positives that were left over from the WWII ordance plants.

I purchased a Model 19 for a belt gun and a Model 36 for a ankle gun. I was the first officer to buy Banchi Speed strips and carry them in my dump pouches. The first qualification after I bought them, there was a lot of complaining that I had "cheated" by using them. My Chief Ranger as if I carried them on duty and when I told him "yes" he said no problem to use them in qualification.

I always found that my agency trained their officers in a Urban LE Setting and then deployed them to a Rural LE Setting. Cost several Rangers their lives.

Rule 303
 
Ah, yes--358477s. The lead pot is warming as I speak.
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I've killed everything from moose to buffalo with that bullet in a Model 28, and snakes, deer, and a horse in my 642.

I got a lot of faith in that bullet. Also shoot it in competition out of my M64 ICORE gun.
 
Just completed a 3 day class today on Officer Invovled Shootings. Instructor is a retired homicide detective from Miami Dade who actually worked the FBI shooting from 86. Was really good to speak to someone who was actualy there. So much internet generated **** out there when comes to these shootings.
 
for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.
 
edw794 said:
for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.
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And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.
 
papajohn428 said:
And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.
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Kind of hard to prove a negative. I wasn't there, I don't know for sure but I would think if the officer policed his brass it would be in the report. I can not think of a reason it wouldnt be do to every shooting involving LE (and anyone else) the guns, brass and bullets are gathered to see who did what and with what.

As a Uniform CSI instructor, if there is no indication the brass was listed as found in the pockets of the officers, I would have to assume it wasn't in the pockets.

So my question is, what does the report say? Where was the brass found?

I do remember when I first started, in training and qualification, we policed our brass after words.

Reminds me of the story: There was a movie playing in a theater, some old black and white movie. A lady shot a guy several times, emptying the gun, with a 25 ACP. The bandit kept coming and the starlet says "what do I do, what do I do"?

Apparently there was a LE firearms instructor in the theater, with a loud booming voice yells out "police your brass and move to the 25 yard line".
 
My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.
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I suppose Mr. Ayoob posted the department's training manual or general order that stated officers are supposed to empty their brass into their hands and put it in their pocket at the range as proof that they did that during the shooting or trained that way? What was Ayoob's evidence? I'm guessing it was anecdotal.
 
The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.
 
papajohn428 said:
And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.
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One post up...is that sufficient "evidence" for ya?
 
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