"The Newhall Incident" 4 dead LEO's In 4 Minutes

[Bat Guano]

Ah, yes--358477s. The lead pot is warming as I speak.

Safari land Comp IIs rock.

 

[Rule 303]

I started in LE in the spring of 1971. We were issued revolvers that would get you killed, junk Colt Police Positives that were left over from the WWII ordance plants.

I purchased a Model 19 for a belt gun and a Model 36 for a ankle gun. I was the first officer to buy Banchi Speed strips and carry them in my dump pouches. The first qualification after I bought them, there was a lot of complaining that I had "cheated" by using them. My Chief Ranger as if I carried them on duty and when I told him "yes" he said no problem to use them in qualification.

I always found that my agency trained their officers in a Urban LE Setting and then deployed them to a Rural LE Setting. Cost several Rangers their lives.

Rule 303

 

[kraigwy]

Ah, yes--358477s. The lead pot is warming as I speak.

I've killed everything from moose to buffalo with that bullet in a Model 28, and snakes, deer, and a horse in my 642.

I got a lot of faith in that bullet. Also shoot it in competition out of my M64 ICORE gun.

 

[jbull380]

Just completed a 3 day class today on Officer Invovled Shootings. Instructor is a retired homicide detective from Miami Dade who actually worked the FBI shooting from 86. Was really good to speak to someone who was actualy there. So much internet generated **** out there when comes to these shootings.

 

[edw794]

for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.

 

[papajohn428]

for those of you who may have heard, there is absolutely no evidence an officer killed during the newhall shootings placed his spent brass into his pocket, though this "myth" has survived for as long as this gunfight has.

And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.

 

[kraigwy]

And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.

Kind of hard to prove a negative. I wasn't there, I don't know for sure but I would think if the officer policed his brass it would be in the report. I can not think of a reason it wouldnt be do to every shooting involving LE (and anyone else) the guns, brass and bullets are gathered to see who did what and with what.

As a Uniform CSI instructor, if there is no indication the brass was listed as found in the pockets of the officers, I would have to assume it wasn't in the pockets.

So my question is, what does the report say? Where was the brass found?

I do remember when I first started, in training and qualification, we policed our brass after words.

Reminds me of the story: There was a movie playing in a theater, some old black and white movie. A lady shot a guy several times, emptying the gun, with a 25 ACP. The bandit kept coming and the starlet says "what do I do, what do I do"?

Apparently there was a LE firearms instructor in the theater, with a loud booming voice yells out "police your brass and move to the 25 yard line".

 

[MaximumLawman]

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

I suppose Mr. Ayoob posted the department's training manual or general order that stated officers are supposed to empty their brass into their hands and put it in their pocket at the range as proof that they did that during the shooting or trained that way? What was Ayoob's evidence? I'm guessing it was anecdotal.

 

[Massad Ayoob]

The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.

 

[KJM]

And your evidence would be..............?

Or are you just saying that since there's no PROOF that he did, that he didn't? If you want to disprove a "Myth", it would be helpful to give some evidence that you know whereof you speak.

What I know of the incident is what I've read............if you have some reason to believe we've all been misled, please feel free to enlighten the rest of us with what you know, and how you know it.

My understanding is that when he was shot, the officer was attempting to reload his weapon. The training at the time, as pointed out by Mr. Ayoob, was that officers were trained to stuff their empties into their pockets. If you have some "evidence" that he was doing something other than following his training, I'd love to know about it...........and the source.

For someone so positively asserting that it's a myth, you have yet to back that up with anything resembling testimony.

One post up...is that sufficient "evidence" for ya?

 

[kraigwy]

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him.

Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.

 

[REVL33]

The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.

wow i have never felt starstruck but this one post did it for me thx for your input massad.

 

[papajohn428]

Another Urban Legend put to rest. Well done!

 

[max]

In the current AH Mr. Ayoob has a very interesting article on this shooting.

 

[Jellybean]

There were a lot of changes after Newhall, but many of them weren't for the better and that was the main reason it was repeated in Miami in 1986.

There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo. It's bound to happen again.

 

[forresth]

Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.

Apparently you must be thinking of another LAPD than the one I am thinking of.....

 

[sigp220.45]

There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo.

This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.

 

[Jellybean]

This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.

Funny, this is what I heard after Newhall. The problem is that the people who analize the disasters don't always know how to read the evidence because they aren't as qualified as they thought. This was the big problem after Newhall, most of the "experts" that jumped in with their advice had no idea of what they were talking about. If they did there probably would have never been a Miami shootout. I too have been in some real potential messes, where things did go horribly wrong, and still not one person got hurt.

But, in a worst case scenario we could have all been dead. History has taught us a lot, but we fail to look at the cases where nothing went wrong, or there was no massacre of law enforcement officers. After Newhall there were 'great improvements', but how many officers died between then and Miami because those improvements were actually worse than most of what we had before? One or two officers getting killed doesn't make national headlines like a "MASSACRE", and until the next mass tradgedy we won't know how bad the last "improvements" are. But we will find out someday.

By the way, of there are official reports, other than the ones released to the public or other law enforcement agencies about what happened that day, I'd sure like to see them. That's where the acceptance you mentioned came from.