"The Newhall Incident" 4 dead LEO's In 4 Minutes

[kraigwy]

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him.

Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.

 

[REVL33]

The story of spent casings found in Pence's pocket began circulating almost immediately after the incident in 1970. When I was researching for my article on it, which appeared in the July/August 1988 issue of American Handgunner, CHP sources I spoke to were split on the matter. Those who said the casings were in the pocket were insistent that it was not mentioned in official accounts for fear it would embarass the agency. What I wrote was, "Though official sources deny it, some C.H.P. officers insist that Pence was found with spent casings in his trouser pocket, the legacy of range training." And to this day, some still insist that.

One of my graduates, Mike Wood, was able to access the LASD homicide investigation file, and tells me it contains a photograph showing Pence's spent brass on the ground. Though I have not seen this photo, I have no reason to doubt him. The photo will, I believe, appear in Mike's book on the shooting, and when it is published may put the debate to rest.

wow i have never felt starstruck but this one post did it for me thx for your input massad.

 

[papajohn428]

Another Urban Legend put to rest. Well done!

 

[max]

In the current AH Mr. Ayoob has a very interesting article on this shooting.

 

[Jellybean]

There were a lot of changes after Newhall, but many of them weren't for the better and that was the main reason it was repeated in Miami in 1986.

There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo. It's bound to happen again.

 

[forresth]

Thanks for clearing that up Massad, I found it hard to believe that the LAPD would "tamper" with evidence to save a bit of embarsment.

Apparently you must be thinking of another LAPD than the one I am thinking of.....

 

[sigp220.45]

There was nothing learned from Miami as all the blame was put on the weapons and ammo.

This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.

 

[Jellybean]

This just isn't true, though it has somehow become accepted through repetition.

I came into the Bureau five years after the Miami shooting. Even then, we were in the midst of a protracted self-analysis. Tactics, training, and yes, weapons and ammo were all examined and changes were made.

Its not like we haven't arrested anybody since 1986. Nowadays the same situation would be handled completely differently. I have been part of several high risk situations that could have turned into giant **** sandwiches that were resolved with bad guys dead or locked up and no good guys injured.

Funny, this is what I heard after Newhall. The problem is that the people who analize the disasters don't always know how to read the evidence because they aren't as qualified as they thought. This was the big problem after Newhall, most of the "experts" that jumped in with their advice had no idea of what they were talking about. If they did there probably would have never been a Miami shootout. I too have been in some real potential messes, where things did go horribly wrong, and still not one person got hurt.

But, in a worst case scenario we could have all been dead. History has taught us a lot, but we fail to look at the cases where nothing went wrong, or there was no massacre of law enforcement officers. After Newhall there were 'great improvements', but how many officers died between then and Miami because those improvements were actually worse than most of what we had before? One or two officers getting killed doesn't make national headlines like a "MASSACRE", and until the next mass tradgedy we won't know how bad the last "improvements" are. But we will find out someday.

By the way, of there are official reports, other than the ones released to the public or other law enforcement agencies about what happened that day, I'd sure like to see them. That's where the acceptance you mentioned came from.