Heavy bullets; how much is enough

[336A]

Lately I've been really questioning the fad of using heavier than normal bullets in some cartirdges. Mostly after reading about the exploits of a fellow member here who goes by the handle of sixshot. Sixshot has taken a lot of large game such elk with handgun cartridges like the .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 Colt, I'm sure he didn't earn the nickname of meathammer for nothing. Most of the time it seems that he uses nothing more than standard weight bullets to get his game.

Anymore however it seems that most people think that it takes nothing less than a .44 300gr WFN at 1300+ fps to kill a measly little deer or even black bear. Don't get me wrong I know they have their place, but it seems as though a lot of folks go over board. When truly large game is on the menue (large bears of the north and African variety) then of course I see the need, no one wants to leave anything to chance when they're hide may be on the line. However if a 220gr - 230gr .41 bullet, 240gr - 250gr .44 bullet, or 250gr - 260gr .45 bullet can sail through both shoulders of an elk or drive into 4' of moose, what exactly is a heavier bullet going to offer aside from more recoil?

 

[427mach1]

I don't hunt with a handgun but I do load heavy (265 grain @ 1330 fps) in my 41 magnums. I use this for woods/hiking protection in bear country. If I were to hunt deer with one of my 41's, I would probably use a standard weight bullet, maybe 210 - 220 grains.

 

[venomballistics]

I tend to agree to a good extent.
when talking about solids, your just about dead on.
hollow points, depending on design trade some penetration for energy deposit that you need to make up for a little with weight.

 

[Goldstar225]

I've noticed the same thing. I'm content with a 255 SWC in my .45 Colt. Now if I were loading for big bear or something of similiar size, I would definitely load 300+ grain bullets.

 

[David LaPell]

.45 Colt, well Elmer's old design in the #454424 has been doing fine for decades. In the old .38-44 the 170 grain SWC 358429 was a fine killer, so wasn't the 155 grain #358156 hollowpoint. The .44 Magnum was right at home with the #429421 250 grain bullet. Sure extra weight does matter, but the design of the bullet, especially the meplat makes a great deal of difference.

 

[Badquaker]

I usually have some 300g max load 44 mags in my range box. When someone crowds me at the shooting range, a cylinder full of those makes everyone move away from me. The flame shoots out several feet both sides.

 

[dirty gary]

I've used 210 gr 41 mag loads for years, taken some wild hogs with a single well-placed shot. I loaded some heavier stuff, I think they were 265 gr., shot fine but didn't do anything the 210 wouldn't. Winchester SilverTip 175 gr. are also an excellent choice, and very manageable. I like the lessened recoil of lighter bullets.

 

[venomballistics]

I usually have some 300g max load 44 mags in my range box. When someone crowds me at the shooting range, a cylinder full of those makes everyone move away from me. The flame shoots out several feet both sides.

a 200 grain XTP over H110 at max will beat that load as a crowd pleaser flash-bang any day

 

[amazingflapjack]

John Taffin did a piece on heavy bullets a while back that made sense to me. You could try his name and heavy bullets and probably snag it.

 

[Badquaker]

a 200 grain XTP over H110 at max will beat that load as a crowd pleaser flash-bang any day

300g xtp, compressed load of 296.

Out of a Dan Wesson with the barrel gap set on the loose side.

I need to get it on film, it's impressive.

 

[Engineer1911]

The other side of the coin

For 2 years, I shot prairie dogs with a Remington 700 chambered in 30-06, loaded with Hornaday 100 grain Short Jacket lead soft points. The bullet was designed for the M-1 carbine. Muzzle velocity was about 3,300 fps if I remember. I used the starting load out of the current Hornaday reloading manual.

The impact and ballistic shock was unbelievable when the prairie dogs were hit at ranges from 50 feet to 300 yards. And probably 20% crawled down the hole. Dogs would flip, roll, splatter, and still head for their holes. Do I need a bigger cartridge, more powder or a bigger bulllet? A praire dog weighs at most 3 pounds, and a 30-06 doesn't stop it in its tracks!!

How big is the bullet for a bear? 45-70 stops a buffalo with one shot -- been demonstrated millions of times.

Don't you just love analytical ballistics?

OH!!! The same Hornaday bullet in a 10" Thompson Contender in .30 Herrett left prairie dogs "Dead Right There". The dog never twitched, moved, or attempted to go down the hole. Muzzle velocity was about 2,400 fps.

I have witnesses.

 

[sixshot]

Back when I started handgun hunting (60's) there weren't a lot of heavyweight options for sixguns. Also the selection of jacketed handgun bullets was very limited & their performance was marginal at best. Later, in the 70's handgun bullet performance started picking up steam as Lee Jurras turned the handgun world upside down.
The other companies had to make some changes to keep up what Lee was doing at Super Vel. Now we have handgun bullets designed for hunting that equal the very best rifle bullets ever made. A jacketed bullet is designed to perform at a certain velocity & when its within those parameters it works great, giving you both accuracy, penetration & expansion. Some of the finest handgunners in the world hunt with Hornady XTP's, Speer Gold Dots, Barnes & Nosler,etc. with great success, even on really big game. Mostly these bullets work much like a cast slug, great penetration & perhaps some expansion.
I started out with cast bullets back in those Air Force days in the 60's & found that they worked great, were easy to make & for me at least, fit my budget. since I was a poor, starving GI.
The key to the magic of a cast bullet is the big flat nose, its creates a deep, straight & devasting wound channel. First you have to have accuracy, without it power means nothing, next you need penetration, without it, accuracy means nothing. Almost always you will get an exit wound that leaves a blood trail on both sides...perfect.
While I have taken some big game with heavyweight cast slugs most have been taken with what is considered "standard" weight bullets. I have taken 3 elk with a 325 gr 45 cast bullet & one with a standard 260 gr Keith style, I really coundn't tell any difference in how they performed. I've taken 5 elk with the old standby 250 gr Keith, also 1 elk with the 230 gr 41 Keith & one with a 250 gr LBT 41 maggie. Out of all these elk one with the 41 maggie & the one with the 260 gr 45 dropped at the shot, none ever went more than a few yards.
What a heavyweight bullet does give you is additional penetration, end to end shots are very possible on deer. One of my elk was almost an end to end, it did exit but the shot wasn't competely straight on, still penetrated about 4 feet.
Having said all this (too much) there is one bullet that exceeds both a cast bullet & a jacketed bullet, really its a hybrid in that its basically a 2 part bullet. Its a softnose cast, made from 2 alloys, the front being pure lead & the back being water quenched WW alloy, there is no finer handgun bullet in the world. I've taken bull moose, elk, bears & African game with them with great satisfaction.

Dick

 

[336A]

Thank you for the input sixshot, those hybrid bullets sound very interesting. More like the cast version of the famed Nosler Partition.

 

[fredj338]

I don't think there is a deer or hog or even elk that can stop a hard cast 240grLSWC. I have played w/ the 300gr & they offer a ton of recoil, but not as flat shooting & obviously mroe penetration than needed. Since my mold throws a GC bullet, I cast them soft, run them @ 1200fps & accuracy is very good, but I doubt they kill better than my 270gr Lead cup points @ the sim vel. I have since had the gc removed, not really needed to 1300fps & that bullet is still going thru any deer, hog or elk broadside.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I came across a hunting forum one night where these guys were extolling the merits of the 240gr LSWC 44Mag-mostly gas checked I think. They were all using pretty close to 10gr of Unique, and one after another they reported on the excellent results gotten from about every handgun that could fire that particular round. Finally, when everyone paused to take a breath, this old boy from Maine, I think, posts, "I can't claim many white tails, but my Brother recently shot a 765 pound Moose with a 44 mag-240 gr LSWC over 10 gr of Unique. It went right through the Moose, which went about 50 feet and fell over." That put the lid on the jar from my prospective; the groups comments, topped off by this last guy. I guess they've got some mighty big freezers up yonder! Flapjack.

 

[Sprefix]

I'm a fan of hard-cast lead. I like heavier because of the critters in my general location. Once you get a big, heavy, slow freight train moving, it is hard to stop it. That big flat nose works wonders. Heavy aside, my favorite handgun load of all time is a 255 @ 1000fps out of any of my .45 Colts. My SAA types are flat-out fun with this load also. A 4 3/4" 1873 feels very good when you squeeze one off............very manageable and substantial enough. JMO

 

[Ziptar]

I keep some 350gr WFN Gas Checked bullets around for my .45 Colt so I don't have to keep a .45-70 around.

Not exactly the same I know but, good enough that I don't need the extra rifle (just yet anyway. )

If loaded right for the job, wouldn't hesitate to hunt with the 255gr RFNP or 285gr 270-SAAs I cast also.

 

[TAKJR]

As all of the prior posters have elated to.....I would err on the side of caution and the heavier, with a flat point, the better.

On the safe side.

TAKJR

 

[brucev]

Lately I've been really questioning the fad of using heavier than normal bullets in some cartirdges. Mostly after reading about the exploits of a fellow member here who goes by the handle of sixshot. Sixshot has taken a lot of large game such elk with handgun cartridges like the .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 Colt, I'm sure he didn't earn the nickname of meathammer for nothing. Most of the time it seems that he uses nothing more than standard weight bullets to get his game.

Anymore however it seems that most people think that it takes nothing less than a .44 300gr WFN at 1300+ fps to kill a measly little deer or even black bear. Don't get me wrong I know they have their place, but it seems as though a lot of folks go over board. When truly large game is on the menue (large bears of the north and African variety) then of course I see the need, no one wants to leave anything to chance when they're hide may be on the line. However if a 220gr - 230gr .41 bullet, 240gr - 250gr .44 bullet, or 250gr - 260gr .45 bullet can sail through both shoulders of an elk or drive into 4' of moose, what exactly is a heavier bullet going to offer aside from more recoil?

It's about the same thing as why some folks use 150 gr. .30 bullets in a .30-06 and some folks use 180 gr. bullets... to kill 180 lb. whitetail deer. The deer is just as dead.

 

[MMA10mm]

Lately I've been really questioning the fad of using heavier than normal bullets in some cartirdges. Mostly after reading about the exploits of a fellow member here who goes by the handle of sixshot. Sixshot has taken a lot of large game such elk with handgun cartridges like the .41 mag, .44 mag, and .45 Colt, I'm sure he didn't earn the nickname of meathammer for nothing. Most of the time it seems that he uses nothing more than standard weight bullets to get his game.

Anymore however it seems that most people think that it takes nothing less than a .44 300gr WFN at 1300+ fps to kill a measly little deer or even black bear. Don't get me wrong I know they have their place, but it seems as though a lot of folks go over board. When truly large game is on the menue (large bears of the north and African variety) then of course I see the need, no one wants to leave anything to chance when they're hide may be on the line. However if a 220gr - 230gr .41 bullet, 240gr - 250gr .44 bullet, or 250gr - 260gr .45 bullet can sail through both shoulders of an elk or drive into 4' of moose, what exactly is a heavier bullet going to offer aside from more recoil?

Good for you. The heavyweight thing has gone over-board in my opinion too.

In addition to what sixgun posted above, I'd add that the heavyweight bullet thing started in the late 70s. IHMSA was starting to grow, and a fella started hunting BIG critters with handguns, and started a company called SSK so others could too.

The first heavy bullets I saw were custom moulds sold by SSK for 320gr cast TCs. They became popular for silhouette too. From there on, it became an ego thing as far as I can see: "If you don't shoot at least a 300gr bullet, you shouldn't have a gun with 'Magnum' on the barrel..." -- (Run away fast from these types of people, IMO...)

Heavy bullets do have their place, but it's a small niche.

Myself, I like medium-weight to medium-heavy bullets. For example in the 44Mag, I don't care for any bullet less than 210grs, and bullets over 290grs are for the ego-maniacs, IMO... The 44 is in it's element in that range of 210-290grs.

Remington did some tests back in the 60s looking to come out with a second load in the 444 Marlin, and they discovered through testing a pretty big range of bullet weights that about 285-290grs was the max usable size for the .430" bore size.