Model 39-2 Help

[gtk]

I bought a model 39-2 9mm in its original box, with all accessories & manuals. it looks to be near mint condition. I had intentions of it being a "safe-queen", but couldn't stand it and started shooting it some.

It has a bad habit of not wanting to eject the shells and stove-piping them. I took it to a gunsmith and he polished & cleaned it up, test fired a few rounds, and determined "all was well".. He didn't fix the problem though.

I replaced the extractor and extractor spring myself. That seemed to help, but not cure the problem.

I can see where the extractor is grabbing the shell and trying to extract it, sometimes even nicking a piece of the shell.

I am shooting quality ammo (Rem & Winchester).

Any opinions on what to try next? Could the ammo be swelling in the chamber making extraction difficult ?

thx

 

[4330Inroute]

Before you sink a lot of money into the 39-2 at the LGS try and evaluate your shooting technique. I have had a similar problem and it came down to not giving the firearm enough resistance so that it cycled the action properly. Not holding it firmly enough can cause just the problem you described. Try a solid weaver stance/grip and hold onto it as firmly as possible. If it is fairly new or unused the recoil spring may still be a bit stiff. If you shoot for groups what are they are looking like? If they string vertically it might just be as I described. I'm not trying to say you are not doing it right just relaying what worked for me.
Let us know what happens.

 

[H Richard]

What loads are you shooting? Are they factory? Some soft recoiling loads might have trouble cycling the action reliably.

 

[gtk]

4330Inroute, to be quite honest, i have never really paid much attention to how tight I hold the gun. I'll give your suggestions a try.

What loads are you shooting? Are they factory? Some soft recoiling loads might have trouble cycling the action reliably.

I have tried 115 grain in Winchester, UMC, American Eagle, and Blazers.

I stopped by and picked up a box of 147 grain Winchesters today so I'll give that a try and see what happens.

I've acquired a bunch if 9mm ammo made in Italy, but I'm scared of shooting it. Looks pretty old and a I can't read italian

Thank you for the responses.

 

[Jhp147]

Although I have no experience with the first generation guns, 2nd and 3rd generation guns require that the extractor be measured/fitted by using a go/no go bar gauge and file, then the tension checked (though I have seen this step skipped) with a dial measuring gauge (forgot the correct name). Not picking on your work if you did do that, just getting clarification.

 

[nipster]

Before you sink a lot of money into the 39-2 at the LGS try and evaluate your shooting technique. I have had a similar problem and it came down to not giving the firearm enough resistance so that it cycled the action properly. Not holding it firmly enough can cause just the problem you described. Try a solid weaver stance/grip and hold onto it as firmly as possible. If it is fairly new or unused the recoil spring may still be a bit stiff. If you shoot for groups what are they are looking like? If they string vertically it might just be as I described. I'm not trying to say you are not doing it right just relaying what worked for me.
Let us know what happens.

What you are referring to is called "limp wristing", there are several videos on youtube which show it.

 

[gtk]

Although I have no experience with the first generation guns, 2nd and 3rd generation guns require that the extractor be measured/fitted by using a go/no go bar gauge and file, then the tension checked (though I have seen this step skipped) with a dial measuring gauge (forgot the correct name). Not picking on your work if you did do that, just getting clarification.

Pick all you need to I am not a gunsmith, but I am not afraid to work on one.

If I have not measured the extractor , will it hurt to skip the go/nogo measurements and fire? Actually, it has been fired a few times. If there is a possibility of damaging anything on the pistol, I have no problem taking it back to the gunsmith.

thx again for everyones advice.

 

[john4970]

I had similar issues with my 39-2. As a non-gunsmith, I had tried cleaning, but performed no modifications to the gun. I met a man at a gun show, who loved the Model 39. He suggested stretching the magazine spring about 1/2 inch. I have no idea how long the spring should be on a new magazine, nor have my two magazines ever been stored with rounds in them. But, I tried it. I now have approx. 100 rounds of Winchester White Box through each magazine without a malfunction. It was a free fix and I felt I had nothing to lose. Good luck!

 

[gtk]

john4970, was your issue just stovepiping ? Or was your 39 failing to extract the fired shell like mine is doing ?

 

[paulj84003]

The extractor gage is important, the space between the face of the breach and the sxtractor claw should be .059 GO to .076 no go. The latest spring for the extractor was green color. year about 1976. buy pushing on the extractor tail with your thumb it should move with some resistance. At one time there were three diffrent extractors, the ext's were #1 #2 #3. No 2 was standard. If I remember right # 1 was short and # 3 was long ( they had a problem for a time drilling the ext pivot pin hole in the slide accurately) this nwas with the 59 also With the slide off the frame slide a cartridge into the breach face under the extractor, does the extractor hold the case?? or does it drop out? Is your chamber smooth or rough? Is the chamber too deep, there were a few like that. Paul J

 

[john4970]

GTK: My issue was stovepiping. Usually about 1/2 way into a full magazine. I shoot the 39-2 only for fun and it is not a carry gun. I felt the magazine spring stretch was something easy and cheap to try. The man who made the suggestion to me, used a 39-2 as a carry gun and said he had carried one during his police officer career. He seemed to know every square inch of the model. I figured at worst case, I would distort the mag spring beyond repair, not be able to get it back in the magazine and I would have to purchase a new mag spring. The fix worked on my first mag and I then tried it on my second mag, with similar success. My gun is an early-70's vintage gun and I purchased it used in the late 70's, for about $150. It had the stovepiping issue the first time I shot it. I just assumed that the first owner had traded it, due to this condition. I liked the looks of the gun, didn't have a fortune invested, so I just kept it and shot it once in a while. I now shoot it a little more, but still prefer my rotary guns. Don't have to tap and rack, just keep pulling. Good luck!

 

[gtk]

The extractor gage is important, the space between the face of the breach and the sxtractor claw should be .059 GO to .076 no go. ........ buy pushing on the extractor tail with your thumb it should move with some resistance..... also With the slide off the frame slide a cartridge into the breach face under the extractor, does the extractor hold the case?? or does it drop out? Is your chamber smooth or rough? Is the chamber too deep, there were a few like that. Paul J

I will check to see if the bullet drops out or not this evening.

The reason I replaced the extractor & spring, was because there was virtually no resistance when I pushed on the extractor tail. I also noticed when I removed the extractor, the "claw" on the end had a small chip off one side. Now there is a good bit of resistance on when I push on the tail end of extractor.

thx

 

[Jhp147]

different guages I think

Pick all you need to I am not a gunsmith, but I am not afraid to work on one.

If I have not measured the extractor , will it hurt to skip the go/nogo measurements and fire? Actually, it has been fired a few times. If there is a possibility of damaging anything on the pistol, I have no problem taking it back to the gunsmith.

Again-no experience with first generation guns, but if the extractor fits and travels freely, I do not see how it could harm the gun to fire it...till it FTE/double feeds at least! The go/no go gauge (bar gauge) that I am referring to checks the distance ACROSS the breech face from extractor hook to the inside of the slide directly across from it. I have no information on gauging the hook to breech face distance in these guns as described by another poster above, maybe that was before my time (just like the 39-2 is!). I am certain that I have seen someone here with a lot of experience here explain that you can't gauge extraction on these guns like you do the extractor on a 1911, and I never saw any sign of checking that measurement any way at the armorer's class I went to in 2007, myself. I can see how it might have been needed before CNC machining, I just don't know a thing about it.
If you have found a chip in the extractor, depending on where it is, I would say your mystery is solved.

 

[paulj84003]

39

The ext claw gauge I mentioned was a gauge used in the factory. In 1974, I spent 2 weeks on the repair bench in the factory with Bob Gross repairing 39's 59's and 52's. The breach face gauge came out a number of years later, about the time the 645 came out. Problems in 74 were mainly shallow chambers too deep chambers, and extraction problems again caused by the inability to drill the extractor piviot pin hole in the slide in the same place each time. some times the hole was a little outboard causing the tail of the extractor to stick out a bit. some times the hole was a little forward or a little to the rear. this caused tight or loose gauge depending where the hole was drilled. I think I still have some #1 and # 3 extractors to take care of this problem. A spring change came out using a stronger spring this was green in color. Another problem with the early pistols was the slide stop button rotating out of position. They went from a round hole to a square hole to loctite, then changed to a stamped piece. Anyway this was this was 38 years ago. PaulJ

 

[Jhp147]

Thanks, paulj...Yes, before my time....I'll just say I was not old enough to drive, much less work on a gun, in 74. I appreciate the interesting info for my "supplemental" armorer's manual of posts I see here.

 

[gtk]

I took it out today. Made double sure I was not limpwristing it, and I pushed some heavier ammo through it. Same problem, maybe even occurred more frequently

Suggestions? Send to S&W's gunsmith? Send it back to the first Gunsmith I used? Keep trying to figure it out with yalls help?

This is a pic immediately after the problem happens. It's the same
Every time. It acts like it "tries" to extract

 

[gtk]

The latest spring for the extractor was green color. year about 1976.
....... also With the slide off the frame slide a cartridge into the breach face under the extractor, does the extractor hold the case?? or does it drop out?

Spring is stiff. I think it's green too. I ordered it off Numrich

The extractor holds the shell in, with the slide is off.

 

[paulj84003]

looking at the photos it appears that your extractor tail is setting a little proud/ If the extractor pivot pin hole is a little outboard that is the way the extractor tail would look.
The pictures indicate the extractor is dropping the cartridge. a repair that has worked in the past is to remove the extractor bend the tail slightly inboard to increase extractor tension. and retry the weapon. Remember the extractor pivot pin hole is tapered, drive out the pin from the top. and of course replace it from the bottom.

 

[gtk]

The pictures indicate the extractor is dropping the cartridge. a repair that has worked in the past is to remove the extractor bend the tail slightly inboard to increase extractor tension. and retry the weapon.

Paul,

You sir, are the type people that make these forums so valuable. I tried your suggestion, went outside, and promptly ran 50 rounds through without one single jam! Rather I should say, my 14 year old son did.

I have owned this gun for almost a year, and had almost accepted the fact it would just be a safe queen, not a shooter. I was not going to put any more $$ in it (at least for a while).

Only bad thing was I knicked the blueing under the slide stop That is the only mark on this gun.

Thanks again for everyone's help & suggestions.