Home Defense

[DenverLiving]

New 686 4" owner here, recently I have been going through / researching the options for various ammunition types for various situations.

My question to the forum is this:

What is the best ammunition for home defense in an urban setting? My primary concern is the proximity of my neighbors (and therefore over penetration). After some internet research I purchased a box of Winchester .38 +P hollow points.

First, are .38 +P hollow point the ideal round?

Second, when I got home I noticed that I grabbed the Jacketed hollow point. What are the primary differences between jacketed and non-jacketed and is the .38 spl +P jacketd hollow point still suitable for home defense (in an urban setting).

Thanks in advance for you input.

 

[brucev]

Congratulations on the purchase of possibly the preeminent .357 revolver! You can rest assured that your 686 will handle any commercial .357 Mag. load currently on the market.

What is the best choice of ammo for HD? It depends. Given the concerns you list, your choice of Winchester .38 Special +P HP's is a wise choice. Most homes will not present shots of more than say 45' distance. At that range, a .38 Special +P load of say 125/158 gr. will be very effective. Some will decry the use of 125 gr. JHP's in .38 Special. If referencing older loadings such concerns would be reasonable. There are a plethora of excellent 125 gr. JHP +P .38 Special loads on the market that are very well developed to give excellent results for SD/HD. If you want to use the more traditional 158 gr. weight, there are many excellent choices.

The advantage of the JHP for HD, etc. is that it will be more effective compared to a simple plain lead bullet. There are hollow-pointed lead bullets and if produced of soft lead, such bullets would be effective. One of the very best JHP's currently available is the Gold Dot.

 

[Glenn H]

Hi Denver

Welcome from up in Summit County.

Asking about the best round is a little like asking what the best motorcycle oil is on a BMW board. You'll get a ton of 'right' answers, some might actually be correct.

One of the key things is to be proficient with your weapon. You need to be able to rely on your ability to function with the weapon before you choose to handle it in an emergency. Training and practice is the key.

Practice with what ever you can afford, shoot a lot. Shoot in different conditions. Be really comfortable with the pistol.

Then? About any .38+p or .357 commercial round is going to be pretty dadgum effective should you be unfortunate enough to have to use it. Pick one that is identified as Self Defense or Home Defense.

Pretty much any full house pistol round is going to go through a couple of layers of drywall and might just wing its way through an exterior wall and down the street. One other thing to consider is that any full house pistol round is going to rock the world inside a house, the flash and noise is going to be staggering, particularly at night. This is no joke at all and a former partner only carried .38 after firing a duty .357 indoors at the range with the lights off and no hearing protection.

Some suggest that lighter loadings for home defense are appropriate. IF it were me, and I lived in an area where I was concerned with potential pass through and I had a .357 revolver I'd load with 110 Gr Federal Hydra-shok rounds. Limited penetration through stuff like walls, light weight bullet, slow, low recoil, low flash high performance bullet design. Only moves around 950 feet per second.

Free advice is always worth what you pay for it.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I think I would load first three rounds with Magasafe or Glaser and the rest regular jhp.

 

[snubbyfan]

We keep my wife's 4 inch barreled 66-3 loaded with 110 grain Winchester JHP .357 magnum. Muzzle velocity 1295 fps for both home defense and concealed carry.
I load my concealed carry 442 with 110 grain Federal Hydra-shok .38 special.

 

[2hawk]

Congrats on your choice of the .357, it is a serious round. Be aware that some ammo is really not suited for an indoor SD scenario, unless you're immune to flash-bangs going off at close range

I'd suggest looking into the Speer Gold Dot offerings. They are not full house loads, so you can get a decent follow up if needed. They also have a pretty good track record, although it's hard to find any .357 round that doesn't work well with regards to terminal effect.

Here's a funny story about using .357 in enclosed spaces:
So, just what is the .357 Magnum like in a confined space? | General gun stuff, Competition, Humor | GrantCunningham.com

And here's some decent reference material, although it omits .357 specifically. It does list results for .38 and .357SIG, which I suppose is a reflection of what law enforcement is using these days. Still informative:
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

HTH

 

[DenverLiving]

Excellent recommendations, i'll make a point of spending some range time with each of them and see what works best for em.

As I mentioned, living in a neighborhood with houses fairly close to mine over penetration is a concern, or rather the "thought" of over penetration is a concern.

Basically, in any potential "home invasion" scenario I dont want my (or my wifes) first thought to to be of the windows in my neighbors house instead of protecting my family and property.

 

[blujax01]

Denver, when I took my Concealed Carry training, I was taught to think about which room in my house will be "the point of no return". Where will I retreat to and be ready to defend myself? Where would bullets go if I fired at the door from inside that room? What lies beyond that door?
The view from my den shows a bullet would travel through two interior walls before it hit the cabinets in the kitchen which are full of pots and pans. After that is a stove and another interior wall that is brick on the outside of the house. The odds of a miss getting to the neighbor's is pretty damn slim.
Upstairs the view from the inside bedroom door shows a bullet would only travel through one interior wall into an empty bedroom then it would go through an outside wall that is stucco. On the advice of some wise person, I placed a floor-to-ceiling bookshelf in that room and loaded it with books.

I realize that this doesn't begin to cover all the possible scenarios but it covers the two where I am hanging out 80% of the time. Maybe this will help you, maybe not.

Be safe...

 

[blujax01]

And as far as ammo goes, I don't believe the hype. There is no "magic bullet" and if I remember correctly, Cain slew Abel with a rock.

And odds were it was not "+P" rated!

I don't believe in spending $1 a round for ammunition. Any ammunition from a reputable name will get the job done if it is correctly placed.

Practice placing the rounds in center mass. Practice it until it becomes second-nature then practice some more!

And you spent the extra money for the .357. For Pete's sake, put .357 through it!
Get used to it's kick and it can be your greatest ally.

 

[blujax01]

...

Here's a funny story about using .357 in enclosed spaces:
So, just what is the .357 Magnum like in a confined space? | General gun stuff, Competition, Humor | GrantCunningham.com

...

But the bottom line is that he put 2 into the target.

Scoreboard.

 

[SMSgt]

If someone enters my house and tries to kill me, my neighbors had better learn to duck cause I'm shooting anything and everything I can!

 

[Larry from Bend]

A 357 round may penetrate less than a 38 Special, because of expansion and weight loss.

The bullet weight in a 357 loading with the best stopping record has always been the 125 JHP. The Rem and the Federal were both always well thought of. I would also try 110 grain gilding metal/lead JHPs and see how you like them.

Monolithic bullets, like CorBon DPX, penetrate more than gilding metal/lead JHPs.

I've fired two 145 grain WW Silver Tips out of a 2 1/2" Model 19 in a 16 x 20 room, in the dark (flashlight). I wasn't blinded or deafened, even temporarily, but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

 

[WR Moore]

You've been getting some good advice. If the round is suitable for defensive use, it's going to zip through drywall with little problem. Information that may be useful depending upon your specific situation. What you have to do, besides identifying possible no shoot lanes, is practice sufficiently that missing your target isn't real likely at typical ranges inside the home. I'd personally stick with the 38+Ps.

With all due respect to the "shoot center of mass" theory, that's for when you have a partial target or at a much greater range than inside the house. If you've got the middle of the chest (or a part of the body that allows the bullet to pass through the center of the chest) available, that's your target. It's where the vital organs and structures are.

Basically, you're seeking a hardware solution to a software problem: bullet placement. There is no magic bullet/caliber that makes up for poor shot placement.

Oh, lead hollowpoints are generally slightly cheaper than jacketed and possibly able to expand better since there's no jacket. The folks who make jacketed bullets have to try to create a bullet that will expand at .38 velocities yet not shatter at .357 velocities. The results aren't always satisfying. That issue generally doesn't exist with all lead HPs.

 

[Neumann]

Be concerned of the ability to stop an aggressor, not how many walls it will penetrate. A lowly .22 LR will go through 9" of pine, equivalent to two walls. A .357 JHP will stop completely in a human body, particularly using a lighter bullet, 125 grain.

Do you care if your ears ring if the shooting saves your life? I don't shoot .22s without hearing protection on the range, but I'm not looking for my "ears" if TSHTF either.

 

[VaRecon]

I like Hornady 125 gr Critical Defense as my carry ammo.
Shoots good without too much penetration.

 

[carbofan21]

I stick with Speer Gold Dot 135 grain in .38 +p for basically all my home defense and ccw revolvers. It isdesigned specifically for short barrel revolvers, but Speer uses the same bullet in their .357 magnum load, so it is perfectly suitable for a 4" revolver.

If you want a lower penetrating round you might consider Hornady Critical Defense in .38. I believe it is 110 grain which is fairly light for caliber, but these tend to expand slowly and modestly so they still get adequate penetration in a soft target.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I own a 4" M686 and a older 4" S&W M&P. For home defense in both I only use the time tested FBI Load. I feel a heavy bullet is better than a light bullet in the .38 Special so a 158gr LSWC/HP .38 Special +P is IMO the best choice.

Don't get caught up in the "I need more speed" hype. Faster isn't always better especially if you're worried about a stray bullet going through a wall and harming neighbors.

 

[scooter123]

I'll state a counterpoint to Bluejax01. BTW, Bluejax I attended Ohio State in the 70's and drove a cab to pay the bills while doing it so know the city pretty well and have many fond memories of C'bus. I also suspect that I'v'e been around the block a few more times than yourself.

First, you get what you pay for. Purchase cheap ammo and you can expect results that fall short of optimum. My Speer Gold Dots cost about a buck per round and are noted for their weight retention and resistance to clogging.

Second, spend some time at an indoor range shooting both full power Magnums and 38 spl. If you pay attention you'll note that the Magnums are distinctly louder with a very sharp crack. Heck, you may have others at the range complain your ammo is "too loud" and you are "disturbing them". In a home interior without any hearing protection in place IMO it's 100% certain that you cause some level of permanent damage to your hearing if you use full power Magnums. As someone with some hearing loss I can assure you that you don't want to do any needless damage to your hearing. Now, I won't say that 38 spl. or 38 +P won't also cause hearing damage, however I can assure they both will cause LESS hearing damage than a full house Magnum.

The final concern is penetation issues. In a lightly built frame house a 158 gn. 357 Magnum will blow through the walls almost as if they are paper. In a more heavily constructed home with a brick or stone exterior IMO a 125 gn. 357 Magnum won't retain enough energy to be terribly concerning. In almost any home today the interior walls won't provide much resistance at all to a fired bullet in either caliber unless it hits a stud. Key here is don't miss and don't shoot a caliber or bullet noted for penetration.

Sum up all of the above and IMO a 125 or 110 gn. 38 +P or standard pressure 38 spl. is a good balanced choice. Granted, neither has enough "power" to make up for a poor hit but almost all home invaders will actually flee if they are being shot.

 

[Cerberus62]

One of the key things is to be proficient with your weapon. You need to be able to rely on your ability to function with the weapon before you choose to handle it in an emergency. Training and practice is the key.

Practice with what ever you can afford, shoot a lot. Shoot in different conditions. Be really comfortable with the pistol.

Then? About any .38+p or .357 commercial round is going to be pretty dadgum effective should you be unfortunate enough to have to use it. Pick one that is identified as Self Defense or Home Defense.

This is the best advice you can get on this topic: Use the ammo you can shoot best with and then practice under less than perfect conditions.

Do you have a place you can shoot with the lights out, or in darkness, or while holding a flashlight?

Where your friend can squirt you with a water pistol while you shoot (don't laugh until you've tried it)?

We used to put a square of cardboard inside a tire and roll it to practice on moving targets.

As others here have said, any worthwhile ammo will penetrate interior walls. Most will not go far if they have already passed through part of a human body. People are concerned about overpenetration when they should really be concerned about missing the target.

The Empire State Building shooting is a perfect, bad example. Every one of the nine (yes, nine!) innocent people wounded were hit by police gunfire and I'll bet you a donut that none of those bullets went through the criminal first. One of the cops is seen shooting one handed while on the move.

Graphic video shows police killing ESB gunman - CBS News Video

There have been a couple mentions of the 110gr. 357 Magnum load. This ammunition is deliberately downloaded to about 1300 fps as a low recoil alternative to full power .357 loads and is more powerful than any 9mm standard or +p load in this bullet weight. At that speed the bullets will always expand in flesh and are light enough that drywall and studs will tear them up.

I am also a huge fan of the"FBI Load", or as we called it here the Miami Load. This is the 158 grain all lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint at about 900fps.

In the 70's and into the 90's most departments in South Florida as well as the Federals issued that as service ammunition and they shot a lot of people with it. It works as advertised. I don't remember reading a lot of news stories about criminals wounded by police, but there were a lot of dead ones.

The Remington version of this load has the softest bullet and the largest hollowpoint. The Winchester version is right behind it. In your 686 it's a pussycat, but with teeth.

So, learn to shoot well, practice under poor conditions and have a plan for you and your family. Most likely any shooting will be inside your home, in the wee hours, involving only you, your family and the criminals. A bullet that escapes your home isn't likely to do much harm.

You will probably not be unleashing bullets on a crowded street, but if you carry concealed and that might be a possibility you owe it to everyone around you to be very proficient with your weapon.

Last, consider that you may have to shoot through doors or dryall to get to the bad guy. Once you start shooting they may seek cover as well. Look around your house to see what a Bad Guy could hide behind. Can your bullets penetrate it and still be effective?

For excellent, real world testing on topics like this, I reccommend this site: The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

This guy shoots everything you can think of into the Box O' Truth, and also the Buick O' Truth. Time spent on this site is time well spent.

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
Glasser and Magsafe were made for the type of limitations you have stated.
I would also aim you in the other direction..
Find or load a 200gr rn lead bullet in a 38 spec.
This was the old Police [US] or Manstopper [English] load..
The key to the load is to keep it S-L-O-W..
In the 600fps range the bullet will yaw {turn to the side} causing more
damage than expected and due to the low speed ,is easy to shoot,and
less noisy .
Do not try to "speed it up a bit" as this will increase the rotation
making it more stable and less effective and inside walls will not even slow it down..