Mystery Gun- What is it?

[Oyeboteb]

Yes I am at least. In post #157 pg 4, Mike provided the following and I quote :
"Chamber length- 1.055" [to shoulder]
Cylinder bore at recoil shield- .410"- .412"
at forcing cone- .387"- .391"."

And we confirmed with Mike that he means 'chamber mouth' and 'chamber throat' respectively.
That's pretty conclusive that it's chambered for a .41 caliber cartridge matching the specs of a Colt .41 long, the modern version with inside lubricated bullet of .386" diameter. And the chamber length to shoulder of 1.055" reportedly matching the rare S&W .41 cartridge which the rare production Smith NM #3 was chambered in.

Plus in the photos referenced and linked to above, there appears to be only one square shoulder in the chambers. Of course a bottled neck round would have two; 1st a sloping shoulder then a smaller square shoulder.

Thanks Jim!


I had forgotten how well that aspect had been covered.

 

[Varangi]

Hi there, it's good to be back. Had not been really active since the transition to the new forum. Lots of new names and a few old ones. Are Osprey and Smitnut still around? What about Jim Supica himself? I loved their posts.

I am aware letters are normally a plain statement the date of manufacture according to the serial and to whom/where the gun was originally shipped, but I speculate, perhaps wrongly so, that there being no SN (provided S&W agrees they made the thing at all), given the unusual, to say the least, configuration, and having aroused the interest of the said factory historian extraordinaire on the parallel forum (as we are told it has), they may think it wise to dig a bit deeper than usual (a note accompanying the factory letter request from the forum's powers that be, if one can be obtained, saying this is the very gun that was discussed at some length would not hurt, I guess). And if at all possible I would not send pics, I'd send the gun.

And yes, I meant to say that it was not clear to me what the owner's intentions were when he took it to the gun shop to had it looked at. Usually people do that with a prospect to sell the thing.

If it was brought to me, I'd recommend to have it inspected first hand by an expert (preferably one I consider that than one that calls himself that) and ask him to put his observations in writing (or at least agree to have me quote him on the matter in my own catalogue description).

Another thing about the provenance: is the story corroborated in some way? Sometimes people do not intend to mislead but rather fill in the holes in the story with what they consider evident and you would not necessarily do. For example, great-grandpa West was a known gun guy, the gun was among dad's possessions, and there is no doubt in the grand-granddaughter's mind it's been in the family for ages, even though she didn't even know the gun existed. This may not be the case here, and in fact the story seems to add up, but I'd need some more to validate it (some sort of paperwork, ideally--heck, a pic of old Mr West holding a gun that looks a bit like it at least).

We are currently attempting to vet the gun- The owner has no intention of selling at this time. He showed it to us for our expert/ and not so expert opinion and pleasure. As far as providence, suit yourself. The owner has a story- a very interesting story. This is way beyond my pay grade but the owner has agreed to present the MS for inspection when the time comes. We are waiting for the PhD's of the S&W world to render an opinion. In the mean time, enjoy the enthusiasm and knowledge of the members.

Mike

 

[FBullseye]

Hi Mike,
Thanks for bringing the Mystery Gun to the forum. It's been a great detective story with many interesting turns. And your own detective work is perhaps the most interesting part from my point of view.
When the jury reaches a verdict, maybe the owner can be convinced to arm himself with those discoveries and go have something in writing produced so the story of the gun is not lost again for future generations--whether he keeps it or if at some point he or his heirs ever think of selling it.
But that is beside the point, the thing here is the thrill of the discovery and the expectation of finally knowing if your hunch was in the ballpark.
My guess is it was the butler in the dinning room with the lead pipe (circa 95 prototype).

 

[Goony]

I sent photos and info regarding this today to Jim Supica. He replied that he doesn't "have a clue as to what it is."

So obtaining a definitive identification continues to be a process at this point....

 

[Goony]

I've corresponded with, and shown the existing photographs to, Charlie Pate. His reply to me (reproduced here with his permission) was as follows:

"[T]hat pistol, in my opinion, is clearly a Smith & Wesson and, in my opinion, is a significant historical artifact. I believe it was submitted to the Army for their examination in the late 1890s. If you will provide me some high resolution versions of the photos (suitable for publication) I'll dig through my files and see what I might have on it. If I have some documentation (and I believe I have), we can do an article for the Journal on it."

I think the obvious next step (provided any of the parties involved have sufficient influence with the current owner) is that he ought to be advised to have professional quality photographs taken that can then be furnished to Mr. Pate. It'd clearly be in his best interest to do so, even if he has no immediate plans to put this gun on the market.

 

[dacoontz]

Everything looks S&Wish to me, except that trigger. I imagine this was already discussed, but what are peoples opinions of that?

Maybe that's why it never made it into production as it appeared too much like the competitors trigger, not that this same reason stopped Colt from stealing an idea or two.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I've corresponded with, and shown the existing photographs to, Charlie Pate. His reply to me (reproduced here with his permission) was as follows:

"[T]hat pistol, in my opinion, is clearly a Smith & Wesson and, in my opinion, is a significant historical artifact. I believe it was submitted to the Army for their examination in the late 1890s. If you will provide me some high resolution versions of the photos (suitable for publication) I'll dig through my files and see what I might have on it. If I have some documentation (and I believe I have), we can do an article for the Journal on it."

I think the obvious next step (provided any of the parties involved have sufficient influence with the current owner) is that he ought to be advised to have professional quality photographs taken that can then be furnished to Mr. Pate. It'd clearly be in his best interest to do so, even if he has no immediate plans to put this gun on the market.

This would certainly be to the advantage of the owner, whatever their pans for it may be...as well as, to add something interesting and instructive to the pool of knowledge about old S & Ws among their afficionados and students.

 

[Hondo44]

I've corresponded with, and shown the existing photographs to, Charlie Pate. His reply to me (reproduced here with his permission) was as follows:

"[T]hat pistol, in my opinion, is clearly a Smith & Wesson and, in my opinion, is a significant historical artifact. I believe it was submitted to the Army for their examination in the late 1890s. If you will provide me some high resolution versions of the photos (suitable for publication) I'll dig through my files and see what I might have on it. If I have some documentation (and I believe I have), we can do an article for the Journal on it."

Charlie's belief in an army trial submittal certainly falls in place with the owner's story of the arsenal as the source of the MG. Charlie's opinion is pretty forthright. Did you send him any of the text of this thread or just the photos?

 

[Hondo44]

Everything looks S&Wish to me, except that trigger. I imagine this was already discussed, but what are peoples opinions of that?

Maybe that's why it never made it into production as it appeared too much like the competitors trigger, not that this same reason stopped Colt from stealing an idea or two.

Several of us clearly saw S&W roots. My opinions are in posts 316 and 320 above on this page.
If you have Neal & Jinks, check out the radiograph on page 388. The trigger and trigger rebound spring are dead ringers for the Model 3 Russian Second Model.

 

[Hondo44]

If anyone missed post #150 here's the link to the photo gallery of the MG including the internal lockwork:
http://photobucket.com/mysterysw

And posts #194 and #233 have the story about the gun.

 

[Oyeboteb]

If anyone missed post #150 here's the link to the photo gallery of the MG including the internal lockwork:
http://photobucket.com/mysterysw

Image '5 of 30', showing the left rear side of the Barrel...

May be some small short scratches, but, it a-l-m-o-s-t resembles vestigual Text, ( as in occasions of having been buffed 'thin' in a re-Bueing...not saying the Revover has been re-Bued, but, just saying there is something almost like whisps of vestigual Text ) where, on later S & W Revolvers, one finds the Caibre/Cartridge mention.

Interesting in reviewing these images, that the Revolver does appear to have been fired a fair amount.

 

[Hondo44]

In 7 of 30 the little pad at the base, underside of the barrel to prevent bending of the extractor rod is also interesting.

 

[Goony]

Charlie's belief in an army trial submittal certainly falls in place with the owner's story of the arsenal as the source of the MG. Charlie's opinion is pretty forthright. Did you send him any of the text of this thread or just the photos?

I submitted four representative photos to him, and summarized the gun's specifications (including the sideplate screw compatibility) and purported provenance.

The readiness of someone of Charlie Pate's stature in the hobby to authenticate this revolver in a respected collectors' publication is an extraordinary opportunity for the current owner. It'd be a dreadful mistake not to at least provide him with the requested photos, or better yet, make arrangements to let him personally examine the piece.

 

[dacoontz]

Several of us clearly saw S&W roots. My opinions are in posts 316 and 320 above on this page.
If you have Neal & Jinks, check out the radiograph on page 388. The trigger and trigger rebound spring are dead ringers for the Model 3 Russian Second Model.

Jim,
I just took a look. That piece has to be S&W all the way so I guess the why question is all that remains for me. Very, very cool. Can't wait to find out more. Thanks for the response. Daniel.

 

[Hondo44]

Hi Twaits,
I agree! And I'm so glad you posted your Model 1896 .32 because I think I see the little pad to protect extractor rod from being bent on the underside of your barrel like the mystery gun. But it could be a reflection. Pls see my post #332 above. Does yours have the pad?

 

[Oyeboteb]

I gather the S & W 'Favorite' ( early 1880s 'Lightweight' .44 DA ) also had the info stamped on to the Cylinder.

Anyone have one of those to post a pic of that detail?

 

[Varangi]

I just tuned back in. My Mac book pro had a terminal malfunction and I am Planing on using it as a target on a precision rifle course that I am attending in the Phoenix area. I think I'll put it out at 775 yards with a beat source behind it and see if any of my students can hit it with a NOD w/ a thermal in our night shoot tomorrow night.
Sorry- I digressed.

This is fantastic news- I will notify the owner and bring him up to speed if he hasn't been monitoring this thread.
I must now go back to the task at hand. Finding other electronics to distroy with extreme prejudice.

Mike

 

[Eddy's Shooting Sports]

This is all very exciting. It seems this mystery gun is finally on the road to being confirmed as a significant missing link in S&W history. I took the photos that everyone has been referring to, but I must admit they could be much better and are far from publication quality. Mike and I worked with the owner of the mystery to gun to document it, but it was done during business hours in my tiny shop while still trying to deal with day to day business. Seeing as there is strong belief that this mystery gun has great significance I will work with Mike and the owner to see if we can do another photo shoot to get some truly publication quality shots for whomever will authenticate and document the bloodlines of this piece. I have a good customer that is a respected professional photographer and I will be in contact with him to solicit his participation in this historical documentation. In the mean time.... Stay tuned!

 

[KJM]

This is all very exciting. It seems this mystery gun is finally on the road to being confirmed as a significant missing link in S&W history. I took the photos that everyone has been referring to, but I must admit they could be much better and are far from publication quality. Mike and I worked with the owner of the mystery to gun to document it, but it was done during business hours in my tiny shop while still trying to deal with day to day business. Seeing as there is strong belief that this mystery gun has great significance I will work with Mike and the owner to see if we can do another photo shoot to get some truly publication quality shots for whomever will authenticate and document the bloodlines of this piece. I have a good customer that is a respected professional photographer and I will be in contact with him to solicit his participation in this historical documentation. In the mean time.... Stay tuned!

One important thing in the new photos is to set the camera at as high a resolution as possible, so they can be blown up as big as you want without distorting.
Macro shots of innards and markings as well.

You can't take too many.

 

[Eddy's Shooting Sports]

Well, I have a professional photographer lined up that is willing to participate in this project. Now I need to talk with the owner of the mystery gun and see if he is willing to bring the gun to the studio and pull the side plate off again. My photog is very skilled in shooting (pics of) guns and told me he has macro lenses that allow him to shoot about a half inch object full frame.

Stay tuned.