Identity problems - number 20XX, triple or 1917 - unsure.

[hokemon]

HI! I have purchased this as a "New Century Triple Lock" that was tagged by the dealer as a "rare find - Canadian Royal Mountie Revolver".

Anyway, I did some extensive searching and am thinking it could be a triple lock, or a 1917... Either way I can only find one number on the bottom, a bunch of british stamps, and some patents on the barrel. I'd like to know more about the weapon, especially a possible value for insurance. Also, I cannot get the lever to move forward to release the cylinder - is there a trick to this, or is it stuck? THANKFULLY I talked my stubborn father into NOT putting a piece of wood against it and whacking it with a hammer!

 

[DCWilson]

It is definitely a Triple Lock, but one of the group that originally chambered the .455 Mark II round. 5000 of these were made under the model name .455 Hand Ejector, and the TL versions are considered the first model. These were made for the British (and presumably other Commonwealth countries) in WWI.

After the war many of these came back to the United States, where the .455 was not a commonly used round. Many of them were converted to handle more popular .45 rounds, such as the .45 Colt and .45 Auto Rim. From the stamp, it looks like yours was converted to .45 AR.

It is definitely NOT a 1917. Those guns had 5.5 inch barrels and no underbarrel shroud for an ejector rod to fold into. The 1917 ejector rods just hang under the barrel with a single lug at the front end to lock down the front end of the cylinder axis.

The stamps all over your gun are British acceptance and proofing marks. The whole gun looks pretty good. Despite a couple of over-polished looking places on the frame, I don't think it has been refinished. (But I could be wrong.)

 

[hokemon]

It is definitely a Triple Lock, but one of the group that originally chambered the .455 Mark II round. 5000 of these were made under the model name .455 Hand Ejector, and the TL versions are considered the first model. These were made for the British (and presumably other Commonwealth countries) in WWI.

After the war many of these came back to the United States, where the .455 was not a commonly used round. Many of them were converted to handle more popular .45 rounds, such as the .45 Colt and .45 Auto Rim. From the stamp, it looks like yours was converted to .45 AR.

It is definitely NOT a 1917. Those guns had 5.5 inch barrels and no underbarrel channel for an ejector rod to fold into. The 1917 ejector rods just hang under the barrel with a single lug at the front end to lock down the front end of the cylinder axis.

The stamps all over your gun are British acceptance and proofing marks. The whole gun looks pretty good. Despite a couple of over-polished looking places on the frame, I don't think it has been refinished. (But I could be wrong.)

Thank you for the knowledgable reply! It probably looks overpolished because I used some hoppe's oil on it after manhandling it with my bare hands. (please tell me that's not a bad thing to do to it).

Does anyone know what I can do to get it to open? Maybe there is a trick, or maybe it is seized. But no rust?... Anyone willing to guess a value, too?

Again, THANKS!

 

[opoefc]

Assuming you have soaked the action and cylinder release mechanism in a good solvent and the gun dry fires OK in double action, and the button still will not move, remove the button and be sure there's no small piece of a broken part, brass, or crud, jamming the movement. I have resorted to the "piece of wood and a good whack with a hammer" method, which often was the answer to opening the cylinder, and if done judiciously, will not damage anything. Value of the gun, in it's converted condition, places it in the shooter category, rather than collectable, to most collectors. It would probably bring between $500 to $750 in most auctions today. Ed.

 

[kenjen]

if you have the right size screwdriver i would take off the thumb release and add some good penatrating oil like 'kroils" and let it set for a day or so and then try to move it.

 

[Texas Star]

.45 AR operates at higher pressures than .455 and these cylinders were not heat treated. I'd handload it to about .455 pressures.

When you get the gun open, you can easily see the front cylinder crane lock. It is unique to this model.

You obviously know very little about firearms. You said that you used Hoppe's oil on it. Was that really oil, or does the bottle say No 9 powder solvent? Either is okay, but you use the solvent only to clean after shooting, then oil the gun. I suggest Break-Free CLP for a good oil. It may also penetrate enough to loosen the stuck mechanism to open the cylinder. I have no experience of Kroil and don't even know where to buy it. But many here say it works wonders for stuck mechanisms.

If you oil the cylinder release area with the thumbpiece off and wait overnight for the oil to penetrate, be sure to use a plastic or wooden mallet if you hit the release. A metal hammer will leave marks.

 

[wheelgun610]

If the ejector rod has loosened up, it may be preventing the cylinder from opening. To snug it up enough for the latch to allow it to open, you need to pull the hammer back far enough for the cylinder to rotate and while holding the ejector rod to keep it from turning rotate the cylinder in the opposite direction from it's normal rotation. If that allows the cylinder to open, you can snug up the ejector rot by padding a set of pliers with a piece of leather, then tighten the rod.

 

[Tom K]

....
The stamps all over your gun are British acceptance and proofing marks. The whole gun looks pretty good. Despite a couple of over-polished looking places on the frame, I don't think it has been refinished. (But I could be wrong.)

Looks refinished to me. The cylinder is a different shade, the NOT ENGLISH MAKE stamp looks buffed down and 45 AR stamp (which as David points out is not the original caliber) looks blue within the lettering, indicating a refinish after the stamp was done.

Once you get it open you should find a serial number (same as what's on the butt) stamped on the underside of the barrel where the ejector rod is. The cylinder would originally have had the serial number on the back face, but that would've been lost when the cylinder was machined to allow the use of .45AR ammo. I don't recall but the serial may also be on the underside of the ejector star, and maybe on the back face of the crane arm (visible by looking through one of the charge holes in the cylinder.)

Factory .45AR is not common but can easily be handloaded, or you can use .45ACP ammo with moon clips. They look like this:

Overall, looks like a great shooter. Congrats!


*Edit: For getting the cylinder unlatched, you may want to also apply some penetrating oil to the rectangular pin at the front of the ejector rod that resides within the ejector shroud, and also to the "third lock" that gives the triple lock its name. In your last picture at the far right edge, that's the square tab with the ramped groove that sits in a mortise cut into the front of the frame. These parts need to move as well as the thumbpiece when unlatching the cylinder. (Actually the square tab doesn't move until you swing out the cylinder, but there's a projection on the rectangular pin that fits into it. Going by memory here, don't have one in front of me.) Good luck.

 

[wiley]

I'd also add some penetrating oil to the front latch, in the barrel lug, since it has to be able to move in order to unlock the cylinder. It could be the picture angle but seems to me the latch bolt does not protrude like it should.

 

[aphelion]

Don't hit it with a hammer and a block of wood. You can try the suggestion of removing the thumbpiece and applying penetrating oil. But if it was me, I'd take the sideplate off and see what is going on. Odds are good it needs cleaning in there and should be done.

 

[hokemon]

thank you for all the responses! I guess since it's been refinished and modified I'lll just treat it as a shooter, not an antique...

I did read that this is considered one of the best revolvers on the market!

@Texas Star, well - you obviously think people that may not "know a lot about guns" are also not the smartest forms of life? It was hoppe's oil - I can read, thank you - the cleaning kit I put together has penetrating oils, no. 9 solvent, oil/lube, etc. ....I regulary shoot my P250 at the range and clean it every time (partly because it is so fun and easy to take apart).

Again - thank you! Your knowledge and expertise is impressive!

 

[Tom K]

So I know this was converted, but it is in pretty good condition. Look at this similiar gun, bad condition, also converted - listed for $3,550! What makes my gun only worth 500-750 at auction, and this listing so much more?

Your post may get altered by the mods - it is not normally kosher to link to an active ad or auction on another site. For the benefit of others if the link is pulled, I'll quote the description (from Guns International, the seller is Wildwood Inc.) - "
S&W 1ST MODEL HAND EJECTOR TRIPLE LOCK 6 1/2 IN RARE .455 CONVERTED TO 45ACP, VG ORIGINAL GRIPS, 70% BLUE, GOOD BORE, TIGHT ACTION, VINTAGE HOLSTER, ONLY 5000 MADE"

Anyone can list their item at whatever price they want - doesn't mean they'll get it. Sometimes sellers put an outrageous price on an item and just keep relisting it, hoping for someone who's just gotta have it, or doesn't know any better. Sometimes they don't really want to sell it, but if someone wants to give them way more than the market value....

That particular seller has a ton of guns listed on GI of all types. A cursory scan of his listings looks to me like his prices are maybe a touch on the high side generally, but not too bad. This particular gun may have provenance that makes it special - whose holster is that? - or it may be on consignment from someone who once saw a Triple Lock go for $3500 and won't take a penny less, or he may just be not knowledgeable on the value of an altered gun. Calling it "RARE .455 CONVERTED TO 45ACP" just sounds ignorant. The word "rare" is so overused in gun ads that it has little meaning (unless you know it to be true yourself), and if it was a rare caliber before it is NOT that caliber any more.

I will point out that if your gun has been refinished, even though it looks very nice it does detract from the collector value. The Triple Lock listed for $3550 is said to have 70% original finish - a refinished gun has 0% original finish.

As a point of comparison, here's an ad for an altered Triple Lock similar to yours that ran in the classifieds on this site.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/guns-sale-trade/142878-wtt-455-triple-lock-new-add-10-27-2010-a.html The ad is a couple of years old but I don't know that the market value for a gun like this has changed much. I will say that I've kicked myself a bit for not picking up kritter's gun.

FWIW, $500 is probably somewhat low for your gun and $750 is more likely a middling price. Not sure what the top end would be but better pictures would always help.


*Edit: I see that your post that linked to the active ad got pulled. Luckily I didn't keep the link in my quote of your post, so readers can still see what you asked about. Also FYI, although I linked to an ad in my post (kritter's altered triple lock) it is on this website and not elsewhere. The ad is also old - if I remember correctly kritter eventually listed the gun on Gunbroker and sold it there.

 

[hokemon]

Very interesting information, once again!... I'm missing a picture here - but on the top of the barrel there are inscriptions with patents. Lots of them! ....the cylinder is definitely a different shade and lighter in color than the rest of the gun.

 

[deadin]

Another sign of a refinish is the pin just above/ahead of the grip panel in your 6th picture down should have a rounded end instead of being polished flat. They did do a good job on the sideplate however.... Many time the "polisher" tries to do the frame and sideplate separately and ends up with a pronounced line between the two.

 

[Mike McLellan]

What a beautiful gun. Despite the contrasting color of the cylinder, I don't see evidence of refinishing. The pins that should be rounded look rounded to me. That rebound slide pin, I believe, gets polished before the gun gets its first finish.

 

[Buford57]

While I would likely look seriously at that gun if the price was anywhere under (or not far over) $1k, the fact that all of the proof marks, the "Not English Make" and the new caliber markings are blued, not stamped through bluing, puts me on the "artfully refinished" side.

 

[dewey]

I VOTE for taking off thumbpiece and putting Kroil in the area, a good squeeze or 2. Should free it overnight....does it move at all ? ?

 

[deadin]

That rebound slide pin, I believe, gets polished before the gun gets its first finish

It is rounded on my TL.

 

[Hondo44]

hokemon,
I have experienced the same stuck cyl release but only on my triple lock. It's a sign of a long time w/o oiling a very old gun. The original very old tech oil has carmalized and is just like glue. A good soaking is the cure. But it also means the entire action has the same gunk.

You can flood it with gun solvent or take apart and clean well.

Do not worry about shooting 45 AR in your gun as cautioned above. It is loaded to the same pressure as the original 455 cartridge, 14,000 psi range.

But I do not recommend using 45 ACP in your guns non-heat treated cylinder. ACP was and is loaded to 19,000 psi to reliably operate the slide on the 1911 auto loader. Therefore 1917 45 ACP Smith revolvers had heat treated cylinders for that reason.

And even with the increased breachface spacing for the AR, 455 will usually still fire reliably if you happen on to some. Those early Smiths have long firing pins.

 

[hokemon]

I think I will try to break it down and give it a good cleaning. I definitely want to shoot this gun! It came with (6) half moon clips, so I can use them to shoot the 45 AR 14,000 PSI ammo (thanks for the advice Hondo)... Stoked to give it a shot