S&W vs. Colt rifles

[kaaskop49]

Hi folks, this is my first thread on this forum, I'm a revolver/derringer guy. I read very positive things about the S&W M4-style rifles, but I'm a newby in this area and have no experience with them.
How is the S&W superior to the Colt product? Does the Smith come up short in any area? Are they produced by Smith or 'farmed out?' Would appreciate if a few savvy folks could 'larn' me. Thanks much.

 

[spclayne]

I believe Colt is the standard that which all others are judged. One mans opinion.

The S&W is a very very solid choice however.

 

[cyphertext]

This is a loaded question, sure to start many battles on many forums. To answer your question in simple terms, no, the S&W is not superior to the Colt.

Is it superior to the Colt in any area? Yes, price.

Is the Colt superior in any way? I think I now have to answer yes. S&W fans, hear me out...I am one, but have had an epiphany. Colt is built to a standard, or the Technical Data Package. Every rifle meets a basic set of standards or guidelines. As we are seeing with S&W, they do not adhere to these guidelines or any other. Their specifications are subject to change at any time. Look at the changes in barrels on the Sport, and now the 15T...because of this, if you order a rifle online, you don't really know what is coming your way.

For a recreational rifle, either will serve you fine. I believe either will serve you well for a duty rifle as well, as long as the ammo your dept uses can be stabilized by the barrel of the rifle you choose.

 

[WR Moore]

Our use of M4 type weapons could qualify as abuse. During a training cycle, a group of weapons is rotated into dedicated use in training. During that period, they'll see ~2000 rounds per week for several months. After which, they get ultrasonic cleaned, inspected by certified armorers, repaired as required and returned to status as issue primary arms.

The only brands that have stood up to that cycle have been Colt & the M&P15. Any part replacements have been normal wear items, such as extractors/extractor springs, firing pin retention pins, gas rings etc. We've suffered exactly one bolt failure at the cam pin slot, dunno which brand.

To imply that S&W doesn't build to a standard is slander. It may or may not be the standard of the TDP, but they do have standards. A great many other brands obviously (since they failed massively in our use) use a "whose parts are cheapest this week?" standard. I expect there are some brands which would also survive our usage that we didn't get around to trying, but there have been sales reps who abruptly left when we explained our T&E expectations.

Regarding twist rates, the 1-7 twist was originally mandated by the tracer round in use at the time of adoption of the 62 grain ammo as NATO standard. Unless you have an actual need to launch 75 gr and up ammo from an M4 type weapon, twist probably isn't going to be an issue for you.

BTW, NO AR type weapon manufacturer makes all the parts. The issue is how aggressively they set and enforce their QC standards: do they use high quality parts and assembly them in a high quality manner. S&W does use (IIRC) 4140 steel in their barrels and the TDP requires 4150 steel. I doubt many of use are going to manage to determine if that's an actual issue (we haven't seen it yet). The difference in price between the two will about pay for a new barrel if it does become an issue.

 

[cyphertext]

WR Moore, thanks for your response. Nice to see an agency that has tested these side by side. Sure wish results were publicly available.

I understand what you are saying about the build, but if you can change specs at the drop of the hat, are you really building to a standard? They haven't even changed the spec on the 15T on their web page, yet they are shipping with a different barrel. Why are they changing the barrel? My bet is cost. Look at the changes that S&W has made previously to the Sport and the 15T...every change resulted in lower cost.

I'm sorry, but twist rates do matter. Look at some of the groups posted on this board from the 1:8 barrel...can the 1:9 produce the same results? I don't need the 1:7, but the 1:8 twist stabilizes a heavier bullet for hog hunting than 1:9. A 1:9 or 1:12 would be better if I were using small, light projectiles for varmint. If your spec sheet says it comes with a 1:8 twist and I pay for a 1:8 twist, I expect a 1:8 twist whether I really need it or not. And if a call to S&W gets the response of "specifications are subject to change", well, that isn't a hard and fast set of standards.

S&W is screwing up and is going to begin ruining the reputation that they have started building, in my opinion. Even die hard Colt fans were starting to give a nod to that 1:8 twist barrel. I guarantee now their reputation will slide back to "hobby gun", whether that is true or not, doesn't matter. To the market, that will be perception, and perception is reality.

 

[kaaskop49]

Wow, I really started something, didn't I? Whatever your viewpoint, I appreciate them all. Some very 'sabe hombres' on this forum. Stay safe, everyone.

 

[cyphertext]

Nah, it is all good. The truth of the matter is that each are built to a different level of specs, and those specs may or may not matter to you depending upon your use.

Like WR Moore stated, most of the S&W line has 4140 steel barrels, except for the VTAC II and MOE, and the Colt is 4150. Does that matter a hill of beans when shooting semi auto? Are you going to shoot enough rounds to produce the same heat as a full auto, or burst fire?

Same does go with the twist rate. The 1:9 barrel is great for the 55 grain and the 62 grain ammo that most people are going to shoot. In theory, the 1:9 should do better with lighter ammunition and the 1:7 does better with the heavier, or longer projectiles and the 1:8 barrel falls in between.

The Colt bolt is HPT and MPI tested individually. I believe S&W does batch testing. The Colt will come with the heavier M16, full auto type bolt carrier, where the S&W comes with a shrouded semi auto bolt carrier. The heavier bolt barrier in the Colt is said to increase lock time and provide more reliable extraction and decrease recoil, thus decreasing wear. The S&W bolt runs just fine though, have not had any issues thus far, but I am not a high volume AR shooter.

The Colt will come with a H buffer, where the S&W comes with the lighter carbine buffer. Same thoughts on the buffer weight as the bolt carrier above. Easy enough to change out if you want to run a heavier buffer.

Both come with properly staked gas keys, castle nuts, etc. Both come with the "F" marked front sight base, if you get a model with the fixed front sight. Both have the M4 feedramps. The Colt will come with double heat shield handguards. Depending on the model with the Smith, you may not get any heat shields, as such in the Sport. Most folks change out the handguards from the stock ones anyway.

These are the major similarities and differences. Personally, for me, the more stringent testing in the Colt and the harder steel does not equate enough value to me to justify the higher price range. But my rifle is a fun gun...shoot hogs on the lease and paper at the range. Sure, it could be thrown into the role of the "homeland defense rifle" if need be, but if it comes to that I have bigger worries than what steel my barrel is made from.

I am really happy with my S&W M&P 15 Sport. I am just a little miffed at S&W for the changes that they are making to a great product. Time will tell if the changes that they are making effect the Sport and the 15T negatively or not.

 

[MichiganScott]

The Colt will come with a H buffer, where the S&W comes with the lighter carbine buffer. Same thoughts on the buffer weight as the bolt carrier above. Easy enough to change out if you want to run a heavier buffer.

I always figured S&W used the lighter buffers because more of their rifles are used by sport shooters. Sport shooters are more likely to use cheap blasting ammunition of uncertain parentage.

The participants on some forums go to extremes to change springs, buffers, and bolt carriers to assure that their guns eject fired brass to the 3-4:30 position that some consider ideal. They like to use terms like under-gassed and over-gassed. Unless you are tuning the system to a particular ammunition, the whole process is like a dog chasing it's tail.

I've seen guns purchased at the same time made with identical components eject differently. If it works 100% of the time, I don't worry about it.

 

[Arik]

Im gonna go get my popcorn and watch this thread

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[had]

I'm new to the ar world, but like stated above. Their website clearly states that it comes with a 1:8 barrell. Which is what I'm looking for. I would be peeved if I didn't get what was stated.

 

[WR Moore]

In RE: website specs.

I doubt there's any product information put forth anywhere in any format that doesn't include the phrase: "Prices and specifications subject to change without notice." somewhere in the fine print. That specifically includes websites, I doubt there's a website in the world thats exactly up to date.

Secondly, if you have specific expectations (standards) it would behoove you to receipt inspect the product to verify that is met those expectations before you accept it. We're all expecting the manufacturers to do so with the various and sundry parts that make up every product available. It's well known that mistakes happen on factory floors, shipping departments and at the counters of gun stores (wrong gun in the box).

Part of spec change is simply suppy & demand. If you have orders for umpteen thousand ARs and a very limited supply of that one different barrel, you have a choice to slightly change specs (and SKU number) or hold up production. The bet is that most buyers aren't going to want to wait or even really be able to see a difference in results. There also may be customer requests for such rifles-with chrome bore/barrel. If you have a valid need for that different barrel, you should have done the receipt inspection to verify that what was shipped was what you needed/wanted before you whipped out the plastic.

Cyphertext, I'd suggest contacting S&W Customer Service to see if they can help you. In the meantime, check out Sierras 63 gr Gameking softpoint (if you handload) or the Winchester 64 gr softpoint load in .223. Both were designed for whitetail deer and well before 1-8/1-7 twists were widely available. Either should work quite well.

 

[cyphertext]

I always figured S&W used the lighter buffers because more of their rifles are used by sport shooters. Sport shooters are more likely to use cheap blasting ammunition of uncertain parentage.

The participants on some forums go to extremes to change springs, buffers, and bolt carriers to assure that their guns eject fired brass to the 3-4:30 position that some consider ideal. They like to use terms like under-gassed and over-gassed. Unless you are tuning the system to a particular ammunition, the whole process is like a dog chasing it's tail.

I've seen guns purchased at the same time made with identical components eject differently. If it works 100% of the time, I don't worry about it.

I agree with this 100%. My Sport will shoot anything I throw at it including the cheap, steel cased stuff from Tula or Silver Bear. Some of my friends rifles that have the heavier BCG and heavy buffers choke on that stuff. My buddy tells me that unless I am planning to run a suppressor on it, not to worry about it being "over gassed". Shoot it until something breaks, replace part, shoot some more.

 

[cyphertext]

In RE: website specs.

I doubt there's any product information put forth anywhere in any format that doesn't include the phrase: "Prices and specifications subject to change without notice." somewhere in the fine print. That specifically includes websites, I doubt there's a website in the world thats exactly up to date.

Secondly, if you have specific expectations (standards) it would behoove you to receipt inspect the product to verify that is met those expectations before you accept it. We're all expecting the manufacturers to do so with the various and sundry parts that make up every product available. It's well known that mistakes happen on factory floors, shipping departments and at the counters of gun stores (wrong gun in the box).

Part of this is simply suppy & demand. If you have orders for umpteen thousand ARs and a very limited supply of one different barrel, you have a choice to slightly change specs (and SKU number) or hold up production. The bet is that most buyers aren't going to want to wait or even really be able to see a difference is results. There also may be customer requests for such rifles-with chrome bore/barrel.

If you have a valid need for that different barrel, you should have done the receipt inspection to verify that what was shipped was what you needed.

Cyphertext, I'd suggest contacting S&W Customer Service to see if they can help you. In the meantime, check out Sierras 63 gr softpoint (if you handload) or the Winchester 64 gr softpoint. Both were made for whitetail deer and well before 1-8/1-7 twists were widely available. Either should work quite well.

I have the Sport with the 1:8 barrel. Have had it for a year. I just understand and have some sympathy for the guys who have read spec sheets and reviews about that particular barrel, order the rifle that should have that barrel, and then get the 1:9 twist barrel. I don't think that most would look at that in the store unless the change has been brought to light by forums like these. From what I am seeing in forums, S&W is telling folks sorry, we changed specs, can't help you.

I also agree that S&W should change the SKU when they change a major component such as a barrel. But guess what, the SKU on the end of my box is 811036, same SKU is currently listed on the S&W website. So guys that are trying to order these guns have no idea what barrel is on it by the SKU. Where I work, we change the TAN (Top Assembly Number) for every revision that is made to a circuit board so you know exactly what is on that board, down to the component.

I'll try your bullet recommendation. They should work well in my 1:8 barrel.

 

[don5]

I took one look at the title of this thread and knew it was going to be a good one. And it was. Thanks WR Moore and cypher for the insight. I learned something new and that is why I like this site. There are alot of knowledgable people on here.

 

[batmann]

Both are fine rifles and will serve our needs for many years to come. The Colt is built to a set of specs laid out by the military to insure consistent quality based on their needs.
Smith built a rifle using the same standards, but changed some specs (barrel for example) to suit the market they were going after, ie civilian and police. Will the 4140 vs 4150 barrel steel make that much of a difference? If you are doing mag dumps in full auto, yes, but for us (average shooter) no.
The M&P I have will shoot anything I can load in it and it a great rifle and I have not lost sleep because it doesn't have the prancing horse logo.
People ask why I chose. S&W over other brands and my answer is always the same, it does everything I could ask a rifle to do, is a quality product and has a lifetime warranty.
Now, if I can only find some ammo---------

 

[shawn mccarver]

Hi folks, this is my first thread on this forum, I'm a revolver/derringer guy. I read very positive things about the S&W M4-style rifles, but I'm a newby in this area and have no experience with them.
How is the S&W superior to the Colt product? Does the Smith come up short in any area? Are they produced by Smith or 'farmed out?' Would appreciate if a few savvy folks could 'larn' me. Thanks much.

The Colt LE6920 or LE6920SOCOM are the "real deal," and all others are copies. Some are better copies. S&W makes a very fine rifle, but none of the rifles built by any of the other AR manufacturers are up to Colt's standards.

I suppose Mr. Vickers would argue that Daniel Defense is, but he is a paid spokesman. His torture test of DD's rifle was fun, but not particularly revealing as the Colt would have done just as well. That would have, however, ruined the two episode "commercial" that his TV program did for its paid sponsor.

S&W makes a very nice rifle that will do everything you need it to do, but it is not a Colt, which is made to the real military specs with all of the attendant testing, magnafluxing, etc.

The S&W rifle will serve very well for all of "our" purposes, but you asked a specific question, and I have tried, without too much techno-babble, to answer it. To answer your specific question, I do not believe the S&W rifle is superior to the Colt's rifle.

It depends what you want your rifle to do. Range work, shooting school, LE duty, match shooting, varmint hunting, survival, etc., S&W is fine. Going to war or planning on REALLY heavy duty use? Get a Colt.

 

[DesertFox]

Roll yer own

Why buy off the shelf when you can build exactly what you want, not ending up with a drawer full of unused parts? My go-to is a lower I assembled myself with a Colt 6940 upper.

Much preferred to any of the factory-built units. Built to MY specifications... QD spots, target trigger, ambi parts, etc. Assembled without hammer and punches. And if you've never shot with anything but a GI trigger, you don't know what you're missing.

My advice to someone stricken with black rifle disease is to purchase one off the shelf to use as a reference, then build one to address the shortcomings found in the original. You'll get a much more intimate understanding of how it all functions.

Then sit back and watch as they spontaneously multiply in your closet...

 

[don5]

Then sit back and watch as they spontaneously multiply in your closet...

He is not kidding. The way I see it, you have to have at least 4. Here are my reasons. You have to have one set up just for those close in shots so you have to have a red dot in it. You have to have one for the long range shots at very small targets, think praire dogs here, so it will have to have a large scope. It will have to have at least a 6x18 scope. You will have to have one in the 300 blackout, with a nice scope, for your neighbors trophy, nocturnal deer that has suddenly appeared in your field 300 yards away at noon. And finally you have to have a rimfire upper or 1522, with either a red dot or scope, to deal with the rabid squirrel that attacks your backyard bird feeder. I think these 4 guns should cover all of the scenarios that you might encounter. And I almost forgot, you will need one more for the spouse or maybe 4 more for the spouse so she can shoot with you. And there you have it. Now all you have to do is get the funding from the wife.

 

[Mack]

BTW, NO AR type weapon manufacturer makes all the parts. The issue is how aggressively they set and enforce their QC standards: do they use high quality parts and assembly them in a high quality manner.

This. To meet the mil-spec Colt has to insure that every part is made of the proper material, has the correct heat treatment and finish down to the smallest spring or detent. This increases the odds that the rifle will perform to the end of its projected lifespan. Does Colt ever make a bad rifle, sure they do, but chances are fewer than most other makes.

 

[KJM]

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html