Pre War Large Medallion K Frame Grips

[gripper]

David, Your figures may very well be correct. We may be able to narrow it further by using the 5% survival rate theory. If we do that we are looking at 400 sets manufactured. I don't think a figure between 1500 and 400 is out of line at all.... Between your IMSS and my calculations we could get this thing figured out.

Chad

 

[DCWilson]

What we call the survival rate is in real-world terms an observation rate, and to be precise an observation rate limited by the number of people who are actually trying to observe the item of interest. As time goes by the observation rate will approach the actual (but undetermined) survival rate, but only in the rare case of small initial populations will it ever converge with it.

The observation rate will be higher for charismatic collectibles like the K-22 Second Model, the prewar K-32 Target Revolver and K-32 Masterpiece, the Prewar .22/32 Kit Gun, and the 320 Revolving Rifle simply because more people are looking for them; even less obsessive collectors may be able to recognize one when they see it. The observation rate may be lower for smaller and less attention-demanding items like large-medallion prewar service stocks simply because a lot of handlers can miss the fact that there is a difference in medallion size in the stocks they have before them. As these stocks change hands, they will eventually move into the field of view of those who are sensitized to them. There they will be noted and recorded, and through time we will get to the five percent neighborhood. But right now, and assuming the the 20-sets guess is accurate, it may be that we have noted only two percent (or even less) of what was originally produced.

So there is much room left for further speculation.

 

[glowe]

Service stocks with small silver medallions -- almost exclusively. And towards the end of the '30s we begin to see K-magnas with small silver medallions.

This is interesting stuff. Now what I am understanding is that the K frame large medallion stocks were limited to around 1930. After that date, S&W went to the small medallions until the Magna stocks became available in the late 1930s.

If the large silver medallions were available in the 611xxx range, that would place their use in the mid 1930s using the SWCA database. Supica states that large silver medallion stocks were used from 1929 to 1941 and the small silver medallions were introduced in 1946.

Since I have been using SCSW3 data to identify the proper stocks for various years of manufacture, is there enough information to add corrections to the SCSW3 database for page 21? The SWCA K Frame database lists only one large medallion stock on a 596XXX gun. The stocks were not numbered and the gun was not dated. There is a 587XXX 1934 SB gun with non-medallion stocks listed. Also of interest is that there are 15 RB guns identified from 1929 to 1941. There were 20 SB guns and 27 Targets in the same timeframe, so I would assume that there were more square butt guns made in this era than round butt?

 

[DCWilson]

The Great Depression seems to have distorted S&W production and shipping schedules, and we need to look at large spreads of serial numbers to see what might have been happening when. It looks to me as though the serial number 600000 was reached not later than 1929, as there are a few guns known with 60xxxx numbers that shipped in that year. At least one 60xxxx gun is known to have shipped in 1934, so it is certainly possible that many guns languished in inventory before leaving the security of the S&W vault. I believe the 610xxx and 611xxx guns are best interpreted as originating in 1930 regardless of when they may have been shipped.

The 587xxx gun you mention might have been manufactured as early as 1928 based on other known serial numbers. That is consistent with the observed non-medallion service stocks, as that was the style in the 1920s.

I think the info on page 21 of SCSW is not wrong in any major way; it just doesn't recognize the uncommon large-medallion variant of the K-frame service stocks at the beginning of the silver medallion period. If we can use this thread to tease out a number of serial numbers for these large-medallion stocks, we may be able to offer a reliable amendment to what is reported in SCSW.

I wish I could see a picture of the stocks on 596xxx in order to confirm that they are large-medallion stocks. I do not suspect an error in description, but I would like to exclude the possibility that one might have been made. Pictures of later guns reported to carry large-medallion stocks would also be nice to have.

 

[glowe]

I wish I could see a picture of the stocks on 596xxx in order to confirm that they are large-medallion stocks. I do not suspect an error in description, but I would like to exclude the possibility that one might have been made. Pictures of later guns reported to carry large-medallion stocks would also be nice to have.

On an off chance, I looked at a few of my remaining Old Town Station Dispatch catalogs and there it was. Catalog #53, page 55 has the revolver. It has some factory rework in 1946 and maybe the stocks are not original, but here is a scanned image.

 

[DCWilson]

I hope I am not opening a giant can of worms if I observe that those look like small medallions to me. There is just too big a ring of wood around them for me to accept them as large medallions. Compare the relative diameters of these medallions to the diameters we see on the stocks posted higher in this thread.

 

[Keith Brown]

I would call them scarce but not rare, I've had three sets in my hand in the last year and have observed at least that many more on guns for sale on the net or in auction photos. They are very cool IMO and I've wanted to make up a set for quite some time. Making a set of Ks from a set of Ns can be done but is not a simple as sanding to fit. It would require in addition to fitting wood to metal that the top portion of the checkering border be recut along with checkering being recut in this same area, doing this work will expose clean fresh wood making the area stand out like a sore thumb, resulting in more work needing to be done to blend the new with the old. Not really worth it unless ya just got to have a set and do not mind ruining a set of Ns. The set pictured at the start of the thread are probably the nicest I've laid eyes on.

Keith

 

[gripper]

I hope I am not opening a giant can of worms if I observe that those look like small medallions to me. There is just too big a ring of wood around them for me to accept them as large medallions. Compare the relative diameters of these medallions to the diameters we see on the stocks posted higher in this thread.

David, I thought that too. The large medallions jump out at you right away and almost look out of place or at least they do to me.

Chad

 

[rburg]

A poster earlier asked about 1928 and 1929 grips. Those were almost universally non-medallion grips. At one time I had an M&P target with a 598,000s serial and it came with what appeared to be original non-medallion adornment. I'm also going to guess the .32-20s were almost all produced in the late 1920s even if shipped into the 1940 range. I've never seen one I felt had original medallion grips. Yes, I own several. One came to me with later 1930s vintage wood, but it wasn't original to the gun.

I've owned a bunch of K22s, and looked at literally thousands of them. None came with non-medallion or large medallion grips. But then that fits well with the theory postulated here.

My guess is the large medallions just look unbalanced on the smaller models. There is a significant size difference in the wood right where the stock circle ends, with the N frame is at least 1/8" wider. While the K's don't look bad, the smaller medallion does look better to me. Could have been an influence on the factory. They made very nice looking guns back then.

 

[Hondo44]

David,
I agree and have no doubt the subject stocks have small flat silvers.

Now, to open another can of worms, have any large silvers been observed on any pre war K Magnas? The era of the large silvers in K frame stocks dates c. 5 yrs earlier than Magnas but you know S&W......

 

[Hondo44]

Making a set of Ks from a set of Ns can be done but is not a simple as sanding to fit. It would require in addition to fitting wood to metal that the top portion of the checkering border be recut along with checkering being recut in this same area, doing this work will expose clean fresh wood making the area stand out like a sore thumb, resulting in more work needing to be done to blend the new with the old. Not really worth it unless ya just got to have a set and do not mind ruining a set of Ns.

Keith

I agree, the checkering modification for the proper proportion of the checkered field would be required to look right. But if not done, the novice would not be able to tell if just fitted to the K grip frame. To a non-novice, yes it would be detected but then the extra bulk of the N frame stocks is already a dead giveaway.

 

[Walter Rego]

May I ask the serial number on your large medallion grips? Thanks for the pics.

Chad

It is very hard to read the numbers, they are pencil and look they they may be 61545(?) or 61575(?) or in other words in the 615,000 range ?

 

[OldDominion]

Hello Gripper, judging by your handle, I think you may be able to help me. Where would I start to look to find a set of N frame stocks for a 2nd model 44 Hand Ejector Target? Ser.# is 319** so it dates to 1929. I am thinking either the plain or medallion round tops would be proper for that period. I would prefer the plain, but I will very happy to get either. Thanks OD.

 

[gripper]

Hello Gripper, judging by your handle, I think you may be able to help me. Where would I start to look to find a set of N frame stocks for a 2nd model 44 Hand Ejector Target? Ser.# is 319** so it dates to 1929. I am thinking either the plain or medallion round tops would be proper for that period. I would prefer the plain, but I will very happy to get either. Thanks OD.

Yes, Non medallion grips for your gun. Check ebay, GunBroker, and last but not least, post your wants and needs in the "wanted"section of the forum. Good luck!!!

 

[OldDominion]

Yes, Non medallion grips for your gun. Check ebay, GunBroker, and last but not least, post your wants and needs in the "wanted"section of the forum. Good luck!!!

Thank you. The quest begins...OD

 

[Tom K]

....
Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the large medallion K-frame stocks were limited to 1930. I had supposed that the silver medallion magnas were introduced for the N-frames, then the design was ported to the K frame guns. I bet a lot of wood was split and wasted getting those larger medallions properly seated in the smaller K-frame half rounds, after which the decision was made to go to smaller medallions for the K guns. Both my K-22 ODs have the smaller medallions; the earliest one is from 1932.
....

....
My guess is the large medallions just look unbalanced on the smaller models. There is a significant size difference in the wood right where the stock circle ends, with the N frame is at least 1/8" wider. While the K's don't look bad, the smaller medallion does look better to me. Could have been an influence on the factory. They made very nice looking guns back then.

Couple of different theories here about why these stocks are so uncommon. I know somewhere between diddly and squat about the minutia of S&W stocks, but David's theory is what came to my mind as a possible reason (before I had seen his post) when I saw the first pictures posted above of the large vs small medallion K-frame stocks. Does anyone have a picture comparing the large medallion K and N frame versions?

 

[RKmesa]

Does anyone have a picture comparing the large medallion K and N frame versions?

Just shot a couple of photos just for you

N's on the Left and K's on the Right:

N's on the outside and K's on the inside:

My $0.02 - all of the Large Medallion K's (LMK's) I have seen mounted to guns, were on M&P's in the 610XXX to 611XXX range. Makes me believe that they were the earliest SILVER medallioned K stocks and that they were placed on less than 1500 guns. I think that the difference in the amount of wood surrounding the LMK's and LMN's is insignificant. Therefore, I think that it was an appearance decision made by some aesthetic "expert" (most likely with the last name "Wesson"). I however for one, really like the appearance of the large medallions in the K stocks - but maybe that is because they are relatively unique...

This has been a fun discussion.

 

[Hondo44]

Richard,
Great comparison photos that answer a question I've always wondered:
Since the large medallions are the same diameter and the arc cutout .745" in the grip frame are the same in both K and N frames, why is there a larger wood margin above the medallions on N frames?

From your photos it appears that the N frame stocks have the medallion mounted slightly lower than centered in the arc.

 

[sandwtrader]

Pre War Large Medallions

I have a beautiful set that came from S N 61073X. Just have the grips and no idea of what they were shipped on, but they are really nice. Maybe some day I'll find the gun!

 

[daytona]

I was wondering about these grips when I came across this thread. Here's a picture of my model 1905 4th M&P #6103xx range.