.38 Special Ammo Velocity Comparisons: Historical vs. Modern

[Doug M.]

If have seen old adds posted here that claimed that .38-44 (pretty stout) could be used even in smaller than K frames (both S&W and Colt). I am pretty sure that could be a bit more recoil than would be enjoyable. Frankly, bullet configuration is generally more important than pure velocity. 158 grain RNL will suck and is always a poor choice at any velocity. A good SWC, even at standard pressure/velocity will be pretty decent. Bill Jordan pointed out that most (men, remember the times) shooters were at their limit with standard .38 loads.

 

[James K]

I've shot +P out of my 38/44 Outdoorsman and you can certainly tell the difference, but the gun handles it no problem.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have read, sorry, no literature cite, that SuperVel used a slightly undersize bullet to get down the barrel faster.

I read that at one time the 110 gr CorBon was very hot loaded but that upon publication of the article, they dialed it back to mere +P.

 

[rockquarry]

I have read, sorry, no literature cite, that SuperVel used a slightly undersize bullet to get down the barrel faster.

I read that at one time the 110 gr CorBon was very hot loaded but that upon publication of the article, they dialed it back to mere +P.

In with some reloading stuff I bought years ago was a box of 110 grain Super Vel bullets. I didn't know at the time that Super Vel even sold bullets as components. I couldn't load them with the .38 Special dies I had as the bullets were far from snug when seated. I measured them but don't recall the diameter, probably .355" or .356". I don't think the undersized bullets had much to do with velocity (or accuracy), but they probably kept pressures down.

 

[Dump1567]

If have seen old adds posted here that claimed that .38-44 (pretty stout) could be used even in smaller than K frames (both S&W and Colt). I am pretty sure that could be a bit more recoil than would be enjoyable. Frankly, bullet configuration is generally more important than pure velocity. 158 grain RNL will suck and is always a poor choice at any velocity. A good SWC, even at standard pressure/velocity will be pretty decent. Bill Jordan pointed out that most (men, remember the times) shooters were at their limit with standard .38 loads.

I have this old box of High Velocity marked .38 Spl. Unfortunately it just had brass spent cases in it when I got it. Here's the warning on the back and the recommended guns it can be used in. But I'm sure many found there way into smaller frame guns.

 

[halfmoonclip]

the members of SAAMI have recently adopted the practice of adding a +P to the headstamp of the cartridge cases

For reloaders, do the +P brass have different volume, due to thicker brass in the case?
For the OP, thanks for your work.

Moon

 

[alwslate]

Contrary to what some folks like to say the standard .38 spl 158 gr RN lead has never been loaded to +P pressures or velocity.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, in strict modern SAAMI nomenclature, but ballistically the .38 HV sure was.

 

[Tim357]

Contrary to what some folks like to say the standard .38 spl 158 gr RN lead has never been loaded to +P pressures or velocity.

WW loaded 158LRN to +P at one time. I don't have the picture with me but it was features in one of G&A's handgun special editions. Sometime back in late 80's IIRC

 

[alwslate]

For reloaders, do the +P brass have different volume, due to thicker brass in the case?
For the OP, thanks for your work.

Moon

According to Brian Pearce the std and +P marked .38 spl cases are the same except for the marking.

 

[38SPL HV]

Very good thread…I still like to use at times the old Lyman data for "38 Special, Heavy Frames Only" but always back off a bit. They work great as utility loads in my 357 Magnums. BTW, these were the old 38/44 level loads….but the argument "why use a hot 38 Spl when you have a 357 Mag" holds true today.

 

[DWalt]

The 110-grain Hi-Way Master were solid zinc roundnose of same profile as the 158 LRN

Yes, it was a hard zinc-based alloy called Zamak. I believe the bullets were made by die casting. To my knowledge only Remington and Peters brands used them. Metal penetrating bullets by W-W merely used jacketed bullets with jackets having a very thick and somewhat sharp nose. Naturally the Zamak bullets were much lighter in weight than lead bullets. They were 110 grains. The idea was to improve penetration performance against car bodies. There was no intention of making them armor piercing. I do not remember ever reading anything about their effectiveness in actual real world use conditions.

 

[DWalt]

Very good thread…I still like to use at times the old Lyman data for "38 Special, Heavy Frames Only" but always back off a bit. They work great as utility loads in my 357 Magnums. BTW, these were the old 38/44 level loads….but the argument "why use a hot 38 Spl when you have a 357 Mag" holds true today.

The old ammo catalogs of the 1930s-40s never provided any warnings against using .38-44 ammunition in any .38 Special revolver, aside from a warning of greater recoil if used in lighter weight revolvers. Several sources estimate that the .38-44 peak chamber pressure for factory loads was in the range of 25-28 Kpsi. I once did a back calculation using Quickload, and that is close to what I got, around 25 Kpsi. I have not seen any actual lab instrumental pressure measurements. Has anyone?

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Very good thread…I still like to use at times the old Lyman data for "38 Special, Heavy Frames Only" but always back off a bit. They work great as utility loads in my 357 Magnums. BTW, these were the old 38/44 level loads….but the argument "why use a hot 38 Spl when you have a 357 Mag" holds true today.

I still have ~200 rounds of 170-grain LSWCs over the "Heavy Frames Only" load of Unique in my old Lyman manual that runs ~1070 fps from my 4" 28-2. That bullet is a copy of Lyman's 358429 and would be too long to fit in the 28's chamber if loaded in .357 brass. The 28 is my "woods gun" and that load is what's in it when I go hiking.

 

[SG-688]

Ammunition factory warnings:

Peters Highway Patrol 110 grain Metal Piercing box warning:

These cartridges are for use ONLY in Smith & Wesson .38 44 "Outdoorsman",
Colt Shooting Master and such Colt New Service and Single Action Army Arms
as are designed for high velocity ammunition.
---------------------------------------------------------
1938 Peters Ammunition catalog for .38-44 High Velocity 158 gr. Metal Point:

Adapted to Colt Shooting Master and Smith & Wesson 38/44 Outdoorsman; Also Colt New Service arms designed for high velocity ammunition.
----------------------------------------------------------
1959 Remington ammunition catalog for .38 Special:

Adapted lo Smith & Wesson, Colt, other revolvers. "Hi-Speed" for use ONLY in such revolvers as are designed for high velocity ammunition.

6538 158 grs. Hi-Speed , Lead
6838 110 grs. "Hi-Way Master", Metal Penetrating
-----------------------------------------------------------

 

[rwsmith]

Since standard police revolvers were mostly Colt E frame or S&W K frame, I think that they could take a steady diet of very stout .38 loads without undue stress. I think I'll dig out my 1970 Sierra book and load up some .38s next time I take my chronometer to the range. They have some really hot loads.

 

[38SPL HV]

The post WW2 "Hi Speed" 38 Spl 158 gr RNL rounds were by today's standards +P. Before WW2 they were true 38-44 158 gr lead loads…I've seen actual chronograph data of these 38-44s at 1,100 fps+/- in S&W HD revolvers. Up until 1976, Remington listed the "Hi-Speed" 158 RNL at 1,090 fps from a 6 inch test barrel, and then listed the same load in a 4 inch vented test barrel with .008" gap (to simulate revolver cylinder to forcing cone) registering 915 fps.