I have S&W 1911 stainless with 5" barrel and a S&W 1911sc with the 4.25 inch barrel. Bought both used for under $800. Excellent quality guns and shoot without any issues. Lots of good underused guns out there and I think S&W is way underated.
Model 686 v. 1911
- Thread starter Philosophaster
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The only thing I will add is if you are going to use a handgun for home defence, try shooting a .357 Magnum & a .45 ACP in a semi-dark room with no hearing protection.......
Can you see or hear after the first shot with what round.....
Can you see or hear after the first shot with what round.....
M3Stuart
Member
Welcome to the forum!
The OP said he bought his first handgun, a 442, last September.
With that in mind; I would suggest the 686+ he mentions because you can, like me, load everything from super-mild wadcutters for target practice - up to full house 180 gr .357 loads.
I'm sure you also have the ability to vary the loads in the .45 ACP as well. But I don't like to chase the brass from the semi-autos.
Oh, and I think a really nice 686 costs less than a really nice .45.
The OP said he bought his first handgun, a 442, last September.
With that in mind; I would suggest the 686+ he mentions because you can, like me, load everything from super-mild wadcutters for target practice - up to full house 180 gr .357 loads.
I'm sure you also have the ability to vary the loads in the .45 ACP as well. But I don't like to chase the brass from the semi-autos.
Oh, and I think a really nice 686 costs less than a really nice .45.
jaykellogg
Absent Comrade
Another Zombie thread resurrected by a newbie. First post and he picks a year old thread.
AveragEd
Member
Even though I am an avid S&W revolver fan, I didn't see where anyone contributing to this resurrected thread mentioned one possibly important advantage to a 1911, especially one in .45ACP - the ability to fire less costly .22LR ammo using a rimfire conversion kit (many aren't recommended for 1911s in calibers other than .45ACP). I have an Advantage Arms target kit and love it. It locks the slide back on an empty magazine, which most do not, and rivals my High Standard Supermatic Trophy for accuracy with non-match ammo like CCI MiniMags.
Regarding chasing brass from autoloaders, I agree that doing so is a pain for the person shooting one as well as a nuisance for the others using that range. A brass catcher like to one I use (Universal Brass Catcher Reviewed by Personal Armament Network) can be used on a bench or tripod and costs $46, if I recall correctly. You can make one from PVC pipe and fiberglass screen but I spend $38 doing so and it wasn't as nice or multipurpose as the one I bought.
Next, some have knocked Kimber while others have praised them. I bought their target 1911, the Stainless Gold Match II, three years ago and can say nothing but good about it. My Internet gun purchases are shipped to an S&W-trained gunsmith whose eyes positively glowed when he opened the shipping carton. He then admitted to owning a small fleet of Kimber 1911s and proceeded to show me my new gun's good points. The one that left the most positive impression with me was the trigger pull consistency - nine of ten checks were 4.4 pounds and the oddball was 4.3!
Regarding cost, I paid $1,319 for my new Kimber and that price included a Kimber range bag, two extra KimPro magazines and second-day shipping. I don't consider that a hateful price if the gun is of acceptable quality and lives up to its hype.
As with S&W, some people claim Kimber's quality isn't what it used to be. That is certainly believable but mine looks and functions great.
This will likely anger some 1911 owners but I recommend would staying clear of Taurus PT1911s. I know Taurus no longer is simply a maker of cheap S&W knock-offs but while decently made, their PT1911s are strange in that they are not an exact clone of the design. One nice thing about 1911s is that they are the small-block Chevy V8 of handguns - there is a wide array of aftermarket goodies for them but many won't fit or function properly on a Taurus PT1911.
Our son and I were at a gun show four years ago and found a dealer selling new Taurus top-of-the-line stainless steel PT1911s for $600. They were loaded with nice 1911 features and looked like a heck of a buy for the money, so we each bought one.
The triggers were rough and heavy, requiring a gunsmith's attention. Mine shot pretty much to the point of aim at 50 feet but our son's shoots low and left and the rear sight can only be adjusted for windage, so an adjustable rear sight seemed to be in order. NO ONE, not even Taurus, makes an adjustable rear sight that fits the Taurus dovetail.
His PT1911 throws empty brass all over - back over his head, high and low to the right and even forward onto the range floor. My Kimber is almost polite about how it tosses its empties to the same spot. I'm told that is a result of good slide, barrel and bushing fit which could probably be addressed on the Taurus by a gunsmith.
Be prepared to do some minor carpentry work if you would like to replace the Taurus plastic grip panels with attractive wood ones; several replacements I tried didn't fit as exactly as you might expect. Their grip screw heads are oversized, their grip screw bushings are j-u-s-t a bit farther apart and their ambidextrous safety lever is too thick even for grip panels made to clear those safeties.
Finally, NO maker of rimfire conversion kits will guarantee that theirs will function on a PT1911 - some even state that theirs won't in their advertising. I can tell you first-hand that Ciener and Kimber kits didn't cycle on mine.
Our son still has his PT1911 but it isn't his favorite handgun by any means. I sold mine after buying my Kimber.
Ed
Regarding chasing brass from autoloaders, I agree that doing so is a pain for the person shooting one as well as a nuisance for the others using that range. A brass catcher like to one I use (Universal Brass Catcher Reviewed by Personal Armament Network) can be used on a bench or tripod and costs $46, if I recall correctly. You can make one from PVC pipe and fiberglass screen but I spend $38 doing so and it wasn't as nice or multipurpose as the one I bought.
Next, some have knocked Kimber while others have praised them. I bought their target 1911, the Stainless Gold Match II, three years ago and can say nothing but good about it. My Internet gun purchases are shipped to an S&W-trained gunsmith whose eyes positively glowed when he opened the shipping carton. He then admitted to owning a small fleet of Kimber 1911s and proceeded to show me my new gun's good points. The one that left the most positive impression with me was the trigger pull consistency - nine of ten checks were 4.4 pounds and the oddball was 4.3!
Regarding cost, I paid $1,319 for my new Kimber and that price included a Kimber range bag, two extra KimPro magazines and second-day shipping. I don't consider that a hateful price if the gun is of acceptable quality and lives up to its hype.
As with S&W, some people claim Kimber's quality isn't what it used to be. That is certainly believable but mine looks and functions great.
This will likely anger some 1911 owners but I recommend would staying clear of Taurus PT1911s. I know Taurus no longer is simply a maker of cheap S&W knock-offs but while decently made, their PT1911s are strange in that they are not an exact clone of the design. One nice thing about 1911s is that they are the small-block Chevy V8 of handguns - there is a wide array of aftermarket goodies for them but many won't fit or function properly on a Taurus PT1911.
Our son and I were at a gun show four years ago and found a dealer selling new Taurus top-of-the-line stainless steel PT1911s for $600. They were loaded with nice 1911 features and looked like a heck of a buy for the money, so we each bought one.
The triggers were rough and heavy, requiring a gunsmith's attention. Mine shot pretty much to the point of aim at 50 feet but our son's shoots low and left and the rear sight can only be adjusted for windage, so an adjustable rear sight seemed to be in order. NO ONE, not even Taurus, makes an adjustable rear sight that fits the Taurus dovetail.
His PT1911 throws empty brass all over - back over his head, high and low to the right and even forward onto the range floor. My Kimber is almost polite about how it tosses its empties to the same spot. I'm told that is a result of good slide, barrel and bushing fit which could probably be addressed on the Taurus by a gunsmith.
Be prepared to do some minor carpentry work if you would like to replace the Taurus plastic grip panels with attractive wood ones; several replacements I tried didn't fit as exactly as you might expect. Their grip screw heads are oversized, their grip screw bushings are j-u-s-t a bit farther apart and their ambidextrous safety lever is too thick even for grip panels made to clear those safeties.
Finally, NO maker of rimfire conversion kits will guarantee that theirs will function on a PT1911 - some even state that theirs won't in their advertising. I can tell you first-hand that Ciener and Kimber kits didn't cycle on mine.
Our son still has his PT1911 but it isn't his favorite handgun by any means. I sold mine after buying my Kimber.
Ed
walkin' trails
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You made a good choice by selecting the 686. Same operating system as your 642. The 686 is a great revolver and very versatile. I have no ill feelings toward the 1911 platform; in fact shooting a professionally tuned 1911 is a beautiful experience. I personally believe that unless you're willing to seek out professional training or at least learn to shoot and maintain it under the tutelage of an knowledgeable and experienced 1911 shooter, you are better off with other guns, such as a Glock or M&P. There are some schools of thought that have suggested that an M&P with thumb safety is a great 1911 transition pistol.
Like others have mentioned, it is truly two different platforms. A revolver offers simplicity of operation, versus a more complex operation on a 1911.
The 1911 holds one to two more rounds and can be quicker to reload with extra magazines. The 686 can be quick, too, with speedloaders, but simplicity goes to the 1911 for reloading, unless it is with loose rounds, in which case the revolver wins again.
For complete breakdown/cleaning, the 1911 has the edge in simplicity, as it can be complely stripped of all parts with minimal tools.
Every serious shooter should try both, at some point during their life. I have carried 1911's in the past, and have nothing truly bad to report/say, however, I prefer other designs currently. Not because the 1911 is problematic/outdated/irrelevant, but rather because other platforms serve me, personally, better.
The 1911 holds one to two more rounds and can be quicker to reload with extra magazines. The 686 can be quick, too, with speedloaders, but simplicity goes to the 1911 for reloading, unless it is with loose rounds, in which case the revolver wins again.
For complete breakdown/cleaning, the 1911 has the edge in simplicity, as it can be complely stripped of all parts with minimal tools.
Every serious shooter should try both, at some point during their life. I have carried 1911's in the past, and have nothing truly bad to report/say, however, I prefer other designs currently. Not because the 1911 is problematic/outdated/irrelevant, but rather because other platforms serve me, personally, better.
I have 11 M586/M686 from 2-1/2" to 8-3/8" barrel lengths, all without locks. All are accurate depending on the kind of day I'm having.
I also have fourteen 1911 style semi-autos in 9 MM, 40 S&W, and most in 45 ACP. They are also single stack and 5 are ParaOrdnance double stack. Multiple things affect the performance of a 1911: your grip, the magazines you are using, bullet profile, bullet seating & crimp technique, recoil spring weight, powder charge, bullet weight & profile, and cartidge overall length.
In the 1911 herd are two custom built match guns, 3 Colt Gold cups, ParaOrdnance Long Slide match target. The following "absolutely stock out of the box" guns: Rock Island Target, Remington R1, Springfield Armory, stainless steel Colt Trophy Match Gold Cup, S&W Target Match that are reliable, accurate and perform flawlessly with normal cleaning. The most critical item is matching recoil spring weight to the ammunition. Factory 230 FMJ requires an 18# (or 20#) recoil spring. 185 grain target loads may need a spring as low as 12# to function correctly.
If you shop carefully, you can find a used L-frame for about the same money as a new 1911 from Rock Island, Remington, or Springfield Armory.
Be aware that the only reliable ammo supply today is achieved by casting your own bullets, and reeloading your ammunition.
I also have fourteen 1911 style semi-autos in 9 MM, 40 S&W, and most in 45 ACP. They are also single stack and 5 are ParaOrdnance double stack. Multiple things affect the performance of a 1911: your grip, the magazines you are using, bullet profile, bullet seating & crimp technique, recoil spring weight, powder charge, bullet weight & profile, and cartidge overall length.
In the 1911 herd are two custom built match guns, 3 Colt Gold cups, ParaOrdnance Long Slide match target. The following "absolutely stock out of the box" guns: Rock Island Target, Remington R1, Springfield Armory, stainless steel Colt Trophy Match Gold Cup, S&W Target Match that are reliable, accurate and perform flawlessly with normal cleaning. The most critical item is matching recoil spring weight to the ammunition. Factory 230 FMJ requires an 18# (or 20#) recoil spring. 185 grain target loads may need a spring as low as 12# to function correctly.
If you shop carefully, you can find a used L-frame for about the same money as a new 1911 from Rock Island, Remington, or Springfield Armory.
Be aware that the only reliable ammo supply today is achieved by casting your own bullets, and reeloading your ammunition.
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I think it comes down to use. I doubt you would carry (at least for very long) a 686+ due to weight, thickness around the cylinder, etc., etc. If you want a new gun for range use, either the 686+ or the 1911 will serve you well.
The 1911, due to its thin frame and slide can, however, be carried in the IWB type holster easier than a full size revolver, in my opinion. In addition, .45 ACP ammo operates at a lower chamber pressure, is easier on the gun and has less recoil than .357 Magnum. Even 38 Special ammo is prohibitively expensive these days as ammo makers tend to make more 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP these days - or it seems like they do.
I vote for the 1911. A 1911 for primary carry and a J frame back-up. . . that is a hard combo to beat in any century!
The 1911, due to its thin frame and slide can, however, be carried in the IWB type holster easier than a full size revolver, in my opinion. In addition, .45 ACP ammo operates at a lower chamber pressure, is easier on the gun and has less recoil than .357 Magnum. Even 38 Special ammo is prohibitively expensive these days as ammo makers tend to make more 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP these days - or it seems like they do.
I vote for the 1911. A 1911 for primary carry and a J frame back-up. . . that is a hard combo to beat in any century!
Silvergoose
Member
Revolver VS Autoloader
PhiloPhaser, first I would like to say, glad you are shooting and enjoying it.
Weather you start with a revolver or an autoloader, if you stay with this sport you will try/have the other one.
I was away from the sport for many years and only recently picked up my old love affair with shooting. I have both revolvers and autoloaders.
Buy what you want and want what you buy. The only thing I would stress upon you remember which one your are shooting grip wise. They do hold different.
Good Luck
PhiloPhaser, first I would like to say, glad you are shooting and enjoying it.
Weather you start with a revolver or an autoloader, if you stay with this sport you will try/have the other one.
I was away from the sport for many years and only recently picked up my old love affair with shooting. I have both revolvers and autoloaders.
Buy what you want and want what you buy. The only thing I would stress upon you remember which one your are shooting grip wise. They do hold different.
Good Luck
qrachel
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Wheel Guns And Sliders
Hi Philo:
I'm relatively new to shooting and have 4 guns now - all bought with previous experience shooting them before buying. First, this is a great place for info and advice and you've gotten plenty here, and there's much where that came from.
Second, here's my thoughts from an admittedly limited knowledge and POV:
- S&W revolvers are uniquely good looking, well crafted, and sweet shooting (Period!)
- The 686 is the finest handling gun all around I've shot so far, though my 617 is a close second. I have a 686+ 4"; you simply cannot go wrong here IMO.
- Semi-autos are great but there is a wider range of opinions about them in general I think. I have shot Colts, Kimbers, and Sigs. The result is I just love the Sig P220 45ACP more than the others; it's simple to shoot and handle, it's well made and smooth, and they have a great reputation - mine is an Equinox and I'm sure in time that I'll get another Equinox or two.
- 1911's: I've shoot two different mfg'rs in 45ACP and I liked both. In the end I found the 1911 just too fussy to handle, but most folks love them that own them. I like the simpler Sig DA/SA approach better. But it's easy to see the 1911 mystic and Browning's magic . . . maybe someday for me.
Keep in mind, YMMV . . . and it's also quite personal and tough to make a mistake if you buy a well respected mfg'r and model revolver and/or 1911. I recommend you seek out some shooting time with each gun before you decide; it has really helped me get to know firearms better.
Good luck and great shooting,
R
Hi Philo:
I'm relatively new to shooting and have 4 guns now - all bought with previous experience shooting them before buying. First, this is a great place for info and advice and you've gotten plenty here, and there's much where that came from.
Second, here's my thoughts from an admittedly limited knowledge and POV:
- S&W revolvers are uniquely good looking, well crafted, and sweet shooting (Period!)
- The 686 is the finest handling gun all around I've shot so far, though my 617 is a close second. I have a 686+ 4"; you simply cannot go wrong here IMO.
- Semi-autos are great but there is a wider range of opinions about them in general I think. I have shot Colts, Kimbers, and Sigs. The result is I just love the Sig P220 45ACP more than the others; it's simple to shoot and handle, it's well made and smooth, and they have a great reputation - mine is an Equinox and I'm sure in time that I'll get another Equinox or two.
- 1911's: I've shoot two different mfg'rs in 45ACP and I liked both. In the end I found the 1911 just too fussy to handle, but most folks love them that own them. I like the simpler Sig DA/SA approach better. But it's easy to see the 1911 mystic and Browning's magic . . . maybe someday for me.
Keep in mind, YMMV . . . and it's also quite personal and tough to make a mistake if you buy a well respected mfg'r and model revolver and/or 1911. I recommend you seek out some shooting time with each gun before you decide; it has really helped me get to know firearms better.
Good luck and great shooting,
R
mg357
Absent Comrade
Of the two guns mentioned I have experience with both and I prefer the model 686.
ibewbull
US Veteran
I just stumbled on this thread.
Well I am lucky for sure.
I picked up two 686s in the past couple of years, one is a 3 inch 7 shot the other a 4 inch. I found both carry about the same. I can not tell the difference between the two. I use the same Simply Rugged pancake for both of them. Conceals great under a shirt. I have $350 in the 4 inch and $550 into the 4.
As for 1911s. We have a Cabelas credit card and after using the cabelas dollars it was $200 olut of pocket.
I use the revolver more than the 1911.
If I pack the wheel gun my 642 is along with it.
The BUG offers more advantage than a reload in my mind.
It can be passed to a friend if need be and I can select from .38 special or .357 158 JHP instantly. Which is a nice choice to have.
If I do need a reload .38 LHP +p works in both from a speed strip.
We all make choices and I can not shake the habit of watching the ejected empties for picking up. I don't need the distraction in an emergency.
The Ruger 1911 in either version looks like a winner if you can find one for a fair price.
Well I am lucky for sure.
I picked up two 686s in the past couple of years, one is a 3 inch 7 shot the other a 4 inch. I found both carry about the same. I can not tell the difference between the two. I use the same Simply Rugged pancake for both of them. Conceals great under a shirt. I have $350 in the 4 inch and $550 into the 4.
As for 1911s. We have a Cabelas credit card and after using the cabelas dollars it was $200 olut of pocket.
I use the revolver more than the 1911.
If I pack the wheel gun my 642 is along with it.
The BUG offers more advantage than a reload in my mind.
It can be passed to a friend if need be and I can select from .38 special or .357 158 JHP instantly. Which is a nice choice to have.
If I do need a reload .38 LHP +p works in both from a speed strip.
We all make choices and I can not shake the habit of watching the ejected empties for picking up. I don't need the distraction in an emergency.
The Ruger 1911 in either version looks like a winner if you can find one for a fair price.
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In my mind this is a discussion that will draw people from both sides of the gun world because if you have a 1911 that shoots well (most do) the SA trigger is one of the best ever made and the 45 ACP round speaks for it's self a s a defensive round. The 686 is an equally steller handgun and is a revolver with legions of fans and the 357 magnum is a great round.
So I think you have to decide what you want in terms of a platform and number of rounds in a gun. In states where it's legal the 1911 has 9 rounds with an 8 round magazine and one in the tube and the 686 has 7 I guess on the newer ones as mine only holds 6.
My 6 inch no dash 686
My Colt Government 1911
So I think you have to decide what you want in terms of a platform and number of rounds in a gun. In states where it's legal the 1911 has 9 rounds with an 8 round magazine and one in the tube and the 686 has 7 I guess on the newer ones as mine only holds 6.
My 6 inch no dash 686
My Colt Government 1911
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ptgarcia
Member
I only have 4 handguns at the moment, (3) are Smith revolvers (a M627 Pro, a M37 and polymer Bodyguard 38) and (1) is a Kimber 1911 (Ultra Carry II). I love them all, but I think if I could only have one it would be the 1911.
shil
Member
It's a tough choice, I know. I am very fortunate in being able to own both. I owned .357's first, a 19 and a 686. Love 'em both. I have two Springfield 1911A1's I acquired later. I like them both and they work quite well. The revolvers have the edge in aesthetics (to me, anyway), reliability, versatility, ammunition choice, and not throwing empty cases I have to collect all over the place (yes, I reload). Plus, I can shoot better with a revo. The 1911's, IMHOP, are more concealable and not as violent with full-power loads (spelled BLAST). If I could have only one, I'd go .357. My choice would be a classic 686 (no lock, firing pin on the hammer where it was intended to be). They're still around.
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As the politicians sometimes say, I would like to revise and extend my remarks after re-reading this thread.
There are two guns that every gun owner should have: (1) a 4 inch S&W .357; and, (2) a 1911 in .45 ACP.
Thus, figure out a way to get both to go along with your J frame.
There are two guns that every gun owner should have: (1) a 4 inch S&W .357; and, (2) a 1911 in .45 ACP.
Thus, figure out a way to get both to go along with your J frame.
Jlduke
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I hate to say it, but that is utter ****. I have a SW1911 and the SW1911 3" Pro Series and not only are both of the mass produced and under $2000 but they both operate flawlessly. Furthermore, Rock Island 1911's (also mass produced and under $2000 by about $1500) have a reputation for being AT LEAST as reliable as virtually any high end 1911 out there.
Sorry, but what you said here is just plain ole gun snobbery.
