Help identifying an old 38

[pittspilot]

Picked up a 12-3 today and got this thrown in for under $100. Seems entirely functionally, but its odd.

What is it?





It is not a 5 screw. It does not have the screw under the trigger guard. Isn't it a K Frame? It's also a round butt. There is faint writing on the top of the barrel. No lock up on the front of the ejector rod, but no sign that it may have been cut off, although I would believe that the ejector rod had been cut.



Serial number is 1984 a number that has significance to me.

As you can see the finish is patina. The grips are junk. But lock up is quite good and timing seems good. Also is this a .38 special gun.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[murphydog]

Probably a .38 Military & Police, model 1899 (the only one without the forward locking point for the ejector rod, except for a modern 1999 or so commemorative gun). Do you see the number 1984 on the barrel flat and rear cylinder face?

 

[pittspilot]

I need a magnifying glass for the barrel and don't have one right now. But it has the same number on the back of the cylinder face.

 

[pittspilot]

I think you are correct although it definitely looks like someone cut the top off the ejection rod. Where would one go about looking for a replacement and also period correct grips.

 

[mikepriwer]

That is, indeed, a model of 1899, probably shipped around 1900. The extractor rod
should be threaded internally at the end - it is presently missing the nob that screws
on there.

The grips, of course, are wrong, and it would not have that grip adapter on the front
grip strap.

The model of 1899 is a 4-screw frame, with all four screws in the sideplate. The
cylinder stop is a very early design, having an internal spring. This is why there is
no 5th frame screw in front of the trigger guard.

It is a K-frame, and typically, but not always, would have the caliber marking on the
left side of the barrel. Some of these early 1899's do not have the caliber marking.
Some have one-line markings, and some have two-line markings.

The serial number stampings on the rear face of the cylinder, and on the underside
of the barrel, are very finely stamped, and are hard to see if dirty. An old toothbrush,
or a shop cloth, with a bit of oil, will clean up the flat on the underside of the barrel,
so that it is more readable. A strong light will be helpful, as well.

This is the more - much more - collectable of the two guns you acquired, although
this one is showing signs of wear, and is in need of some TLC, not to mention a
pair of period grips and an extractor nob.

Mike Priwer

 

[TNDave]

Those grips may be worth $100

 

[mikepriwer]

I missed your question-post by about 4 minutes. The cost of a replacement rod and
nob will cost you more than what you paid for the gun. Grips will be $30 to $60 or more,
depending on condition.

Mike Priwer

 

[murphydog]

The end of the ejector rod has a small threaded part that is often lost. The stocks would be round butt service stocks, checkered, with a small flat area where the medallion is on later stocks.

I believe Forum member Mike Priwer (the resident 1899 expert) had the rod end available. Either he or posting a Wanted to Buy ad may be a good source.

Edit: There he is .

 

[Hondo44]

That's a nice old .36 M&P 1st model (model of 1899 Army-Navy Revolver).
Since you have so little in it, I'd sell the grips and grip adapter and use the money to replace the missing parts and get it back to original.

 

[pittspilot]

What makes the grips so valuable?

 

[Hondo44]

They are genuine India Sambar Stag and no longer exported from India.
If you find a new set, be prepared for at least a $300 price tag average depending on the size grip they will fit. About the same price as legal ivory.
Check here:
Elen Hunting & Importing Inc.: Stag Grips - Ivory Grips - Pearl Grips

Yours will clean up like new. These looked similar when found:

 

[lebomm]

So sell those stags and adaptor, find a pair of "experienced" gutta-perchas and extractor knob, and you'll have a fine representative M1899 or First Model M&P for a very small investment.

 

[OFT II]

Get an old toothbrush and some toothpaste and clean those grips just as you would brush your teeth. I think they will look just fine after a good cleaning. Rub a little mineral oil into them after they dry a couple of days.

 

[pittspilot]

Thanks so much. This turned out to be a great deal.

 

[mikepriwer]

So - we need some more information.
1. How long is the flat on the underside of the barrel - from the frame face to the
end of the flat ? Is it about 1 1/16" long ?
2. How long is the extractor rod - measuring the same way ? Is it just a tad
longer than the flat ?
3. Take a picture of the end of the extractor rod - so that we can see what is
going on there .
4. How long is the barrel - from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel ?
5. Get the grips off this gun . They are square butt, and the gun is round-butt.
6. If you can - carefully remove the 4 sideplate screws, and then rap the butt
with a piece of wood - hammer handle, etc. The side plate should rise up, and
come off. If any of the screws are stuck, put a few drops of a good penetrating
oil on top of the screw, about every hour. After a few hours, try to remove .
7. Get a couple of good pictures of the whole rear half of the right side w/o the
side plate. At least one picture should include the exposed grip frame.
8. Get a good picture of the exposed grip frame, one of each side. We are
looking for any markings on the grip frame.
9. Get a close-up picture of the left side of the barrel - showing the caliber
roll markings.

Mike Priwer

 

[pittspilot]

Please see answers in your quote.

So - we need some more information.
1. How long is the flat on the underside of the barrel - from the frame face to the
end of the flat ? Is it about 1 1/16" long ?

1.077 inches as measured edge to edge with digital calipers.

2. How long is the extractor rod - measuring the same way ? Is it just a tad
longer than the flat ?

1.099 inches

3. Take a picture of the end of the extractor rod - so that we can see what is
going on there .






I tried to get the threads, but could not. I can tell you that they look crisp and clean.

4. How long is the barrel - from the front of the cylinder to the end of the barrel ?

Exactly 5 inches as measure with digital calipers

5. Get the grips off this gun . They are square butt, and the gun is round-butt.

Okay, first big problem. The grips appear to have been glued to the frame and the forward grip piece. Not sure what kind of glue. Need to figure out what I can use to dissolve the glue, which will not destroy the grips.

Update. Got the grips off the gun. The bad news is that the t grip on the front did not survive. It was plastic brittle and beyond saving. The great new is that the stags came off with without mishap and look great. By the way. MPRo-7 is a great gentle solvent.

6. If you can - carefully remove the 4 sideplate screws, and then rap the butt
with a piece of wood - hammer handle, etc. The side plate should rise up, and
come off. If any of the screws are stuck, put a few drops of a good penetrating
oil on top of the screw, about every hour. After a few hours, try to remove .

That will have to wait till I get the grips off. The yoke rentention screw came out easily.

Update, the screws came out easy.

7. Get a couple of good pictures of the whole rear half of the right side w/o the
side plate. At least one picture should include the exposed grip frame.



8. Get a good picture of the exposed grip frame, one of each side. We are
looking for any markings on the grip frame.





No markings

9. Get a close-up picture of the left side of the barrel - showing the caliber
roll markings.

There are no roll marks. It does have two lines of writing on the top of the barrel Between two crosses. By the way the barrel matches number matches the other numbers

Mike Priwer

Hope this helps.

 

[mikepriwer]

Good . Everything looks to be just as it ought to be. The lockwork could use a
minor cleaning, but on balance, looks good. That you got it apart means that the
important screws are all functional. All it needs is a pair of grips, an extractor rod
nob, and maybe a bit of clean-up on the end of the extractor rod.

As to the rod: here is a picture of what it should look like. What's important is that
the end of the rod is just a bit longer than the end of the flat under the barrel. A
visual inspection is all that is necessary, and from what I saw in your earlier pictures,
it looks to be long enough.

The flat is nothing more than a filler between what would have been the round bottom
of the barrel, and the top of the extractor rod. The flat area actually hangs down from
the bottom of the barrel.

The extractor rod is internally threaded, with a 6-40 machine thread. With a careful look, you can see the threads inside the extractor rod, ad you'll also see that there is
a slight clearance recess before the threads start. This next picture shows the rod with the nob screwed into it.

The nob tightens up flush to the end of the rod. In this picture, you'll see a small
gap between the end of the nob, and the start of the flat. This is because the rod
is just a tad longer than the flat area. Its necessary because the nob actually fills a
bit of the space between it and the round bottom of the barrel.

As long as your rod is projecting just a bit in front of the flat, its salvageable. Assuming
that the threads are OK, all that it needs is to get its front end squared up. You can
confirm that the threads are OK by going to a good hardware store, and try threading
in a 6-40 machine screw. If only the first thread is damaged, you can buy a 6-40
tap and run it through.

I don't know what happened to the front end of the rod. If its been cut to where
the thread recess is missing, you'll need to restore just a tiny bit of recess.

Then you'll need to buy a nob. I used to sell them, but haven't lately because I have
only a very few. My machinist friend that made them may still have one or two
that are not completed - I'd have to check.

My friend will have some available , maybe a week or two or so. They will be polished
bright steel, so you may want to blue them - cold blue does work. Price would be $90.

As to the grips, nominally they would be the black hard rubber grips. They are
typically available at most gun shows. Others on this site may have a pair for sale.

So far - so good.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[pittspilot]

Thanks for the information. On inspection, the end of the ejector looks good and square. It also drops some and the thread look crisp and sharp with no flat spots. I'll grab that screw and check.

I cleaned up that lock work before I put the thing together. The barrell looks a little dark and I am going to soak it overnight.

I am very interested in getting the ejector end and $90 sounds fine.

Thanks again.

 

[mikepriwer]

The nob is ready. I sent you a message with the name and address .

Regards, Mike Priwer