J frame not fun

[RGMoore]

As others have said, it takes LOTS of practice to be accurate with a snubbie. I bought a bullet mold and load 148gr WC over about 3.5gr of Unique and shoot a lot. Last time I qualified for my CCW I had the shooters on each side of me leaning over to see what I was shooting to produce those little tiny groups
Dry firing is great practice and live fire with target loads will get your groups looking much better. Snubbies are very accurate but take some mastery.

 

[Ranger514]

It might take an "expert" to shoot tiny groups at 15-25 yards with a snubby J Frame, but it wasn't designed to be a target pistol. It's a great point shooting defensive revolver. I can slow-fire aim and shoot a 2-inch group freestanding at 7 yards. At the same distance, however, I can rapid-fire, point-shoot a full cylinder center mass into the five ring (7 1/2" X11 1/2" oval) of a man sized Transitional Target in a matter of seconds. That's all I require, and that is what the snubbie was designed to do.

 

[rwsmith]

I'm no good....

I'm no good with DA and short small guns but I hope one day to alleviate that in the future. Hickok45 on Youtube is my hero and my nemesis.

 

[shep854]

Actually, once you get used to it, a J-frame is a ton of fun to shoot!! Consider it a challenge and master that little blaster!!

 

[Rpg]

Practice, practice, practice.

Get some snap caps, and do a LOT of dry firing. Thousands of dry fires. Watch the laser when you dry fire. If the laser is all over the place, your shots will be inaccurate. Put a coin on top of the revolver, and practice dry firing until you can do it repeatedly without the coin falling off the revolver. I did 25 dry fires last night before the coin fell off, right handed, and I got to 25 left handed dry fires, tired of the exercises, and removed the coin from on top of the revolver.

Shooting is a perishable skill, so lack of practice will make you a worst shot.

J frames are easy to carry, but are really experts' guns when it comes time to fire the little guns. However, with plenty of practice, you can learn to be a pretty good shot even with a J frame.

^^^^^^^
Everything he said except you don't need snap caps and lasers. (Unless you can't see the front sight because of the coin!).

Front sight, front sight, front sight!

 

[SgtLumpy]

J frame snubs are highly accurate. All my movie and TV detective heroes could shoot the gun out of the hand of the thug from the hip.

Seriously...They're just as accurate as any other gun. Practice with it.

Sgt Lumpy

 

[Mister_Smith]

oldnfat, I too have a J frame with a laser sight, Crimson Trace 405's I believe. I would sit at home, about 10 feet or so from a target, and I would dry fire the gun. The red dot would move SUBSTANTIALLY with every trigger pull, nearly moving off a head sized target at living room range.

The heavy double action trigger pull of a J frame is that heavy that it changes your point of aim substantially with every trigger pull.

I discovered it takes LOTS of dry fire practice to correct this and even then improvement is limited.

At a 25 yard target, I noticed that pulling the trigger would move the red dot entirely off a man sized target at that range during dry fire practice.

I never tried an Apex kit but I cannot imagine it would improve the trigger pull enough, much practice is still necessary.

Try living room dry fire practice with your J frame, the laser on, you may be surprised by what you discover.

Also, do a search for Jerry Miculek's video on how to shoot a Smith J frame, and his recommended hand hold/positioning. It greatly improved my J frame shooting, I was able to keep nearly all shots on a man sized target at 25 yards with a .22 J frame, and though it wasn't impressive, with my .357 340 shooting full house magnum loads, I could actually keep two or three shots out of five on paper at 25 yards! That set up is NOT a 25 yard set up, but unfortunately my range refuses to have targets any closer than 25 yards.

As somebody already mentioned, try light target loads so you can focus on technique without the distraction of dealing with heavy recoil.

Practice practice practice practice, and with a little help from your friends on this forum, I believe you may begin to like your little J frame a bit more!

 

[Boogsawaste]

As these guys said, practice! I've had 3 "j" frames now. A Taurus 85, bg38, and the real j frame, 642. Wasn't very good with the Taurus (was my first gun, shot low right, even using SA), right on with the bg38, and low right with the 642. Later I figured I shot the bg38 well because there were a lot of complaints about them shooting high left, making my normal low right shots end up on target .

With practice I am able to usually get all 5 shots from the 642 on a 12X12 target at 15 yards. Its obvious I'm not a target shooter, but it's an improvement I'm proud of. Besides finding the proper hold for me, what helped a LOT was getting a huge sheet of cardboard and putting that up behind my target. That way I could actually see where I was hitting when I was off the paper.

 

[Pisgah]

I struggled for many years to master DA shooting of small-frame revolvers. One day at the range I met an older gentleman who introduced himself during a break to change targets, and he told me he was a retired police officer who had shot revolvers competitively for 30 years. He had been observing my less-than-stellar shooting, and asked if I would mind getting a few tips. Mama didn't raise no fools, and I gratefully accepted his offer.

In 15 minutes, he instructed me in 3 critical areas:

1. Grip -- with a small, lightweight revolver, you should be gripping the gun like grim death. Any small-frame revolver of significant chambering is going to buck violently, and a bullet must be launched from a stable platform in order to hit its target;

2. Trigger -- should not be engaged with the tip of the finger, but at a point somewhere between the center of the first pad of the finger and the first joint. Find where it works for you. The trigger pull should not be "staged" in any fashion; rather, it should be a quick, smooth, straight-thru stroke, with absolutely no hesitation;

3. Sights -- front sight should be on-target throughout the trigger stroke, and complete concentration should be focused on keeping it there.

Dry-fire is essential in mastering these elements. Make SURE the gun is empty, pick a small target, and work on keeping that sight locked on-target. Working on improving grip strength pays dividends, too.

Before your next session, do some dry-fire practice keeping these thing in mind. You may be amazed by the improvement, as I was.

 

[snubbyfan]

As mentioned by others, snubbies take lotsa practice, both dry fire and live fire.
But before all that practice you need to make sure you're gripping the gun correctly and that the gun has the correct grip for you. My 442 with the boot grips did not fit my hand and I couldn't get a proper grip on it. I put Pachmayr compact grips on it, they fit much better and they're still concealable.
I do have a laser but I use that more for dry fire practice than an actual aiming tool. I just put the red dot on something across the room and keep it there while I pull the trigger. I suprised myself and others by outshooting a buddy at 25 yards. He had a .45 Springfield DX Tactical and I was shooting my 442.
J frame Snubbies are great little guns and it's worth the time and effort to shoot them accurately.

 

[chief38]

I finally acquired enough ammo to go to the range. My first trip this year. Fired a couple of hundred rounds thru my DW Guardian .45. Shot pretty good, surprised myself. Then I fired 15 or 20 shots with the .38sp AirWeight. Couldn't hit anything. Target was at 10 to 12 feet. I realize the gun is a close-in weapon, and I do pocket carry it quite a bit. Recommendations for better results or another snubbie maybe? Am I expecting too much? Laser grips didn't seem to help, and it does have an Apex trigger kit installed.

The M37 Airweight and its clones are quite formidable self defense weapons if practiced with routinely. Because of its light weigh, small size and grips it is not an easy weapon to master but is a joy to carry. Most people make the HUGE mistake of not practicing enough with their carry weapon and carry ammo and are not proficient with it. The Airweights and even lighter Airlights need to be practiced with enough so you feel totally comfortable and can consistently hit vital areas. The best suggestion I can give you is to start with standard velocity 158 grain loads or mild hand loads. Actually 148 grain Factory Wad Cutters would be perfect! The are the mildest of the 38 Specials and you should be able to shoot them all day with no major recoil. When you master the mild stuff you can step up to a more aggressive load for SD. If you find yourself shooting consistently well with standard velocity ammo and terribly with +P stuff, stick with the standard velocity ammo, after all....... 5 hits with standard velocity loads are better than 5 misses with +P ammo. Practice practice practice makes perfect.

Laser grips alone do not take the place of proper training and constant practice. Don't think that Hi-Tech is a substitute for proficiency - IT AIN"T! You did not mention what kind of grips you have on the gun, but if you have the older style Magna-grips you might want to add a Tyler or BK type T-Grip which will give you a better hold on the weapon and seem to tame recoil a bit. There are also plenty of after market grips for J's but remember if you go too large it kind of defeats the whole purpose of carrying a really small revolver.

Last but not least....... when you go to the Range to practice with your CCW gun, don't shoot any other guns that day. Keep focused on what your intended mission is that day. I see WAY TOO MANY guys go to the Range with 5 or 6 guns and shoot each one for 15 minutes. Then they wonder why they can't shoot for beans!!!! I rarely bring more than two guns and lots of times only one.

 

[oldnfat]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone. My Airweight is a DAO. I was firing factory .38 sp, 130 grain FMJ. Laser was covered after first one or two shots, no idea where it is sighted. I'll get some snap caps and practice more. Ammo id so hard to find around here I just can't shoot very much. I'll also look into some different grips. I do like the gun, and I feel the problems are all mine. Thanks again to all.

 

[KEN L]

Yep it's all your fault! Now get to practicing.

 

[M&P Freak]

My shooting improved considerably once I replaced the factory boot grips with Pachmayr compacs like snubbyfan's ^. Huge improvement for me as I can hang on much better, the covered backstrap lengthens the overall size improving my trigger control and the felt recoil is very much reduced. +P was out of the question before but now I could shoot it all afternoon and actually hit what I'm aiming at.

 

[Ranger514]

In response to suggestions made by another member in an earlier post, I have never worked with a fellow firearms instructor who suggested taking a "death grip" on any handgun stocks. To the contrary, I have been taught that doing so would constrict circulation to the fingers, and cause excessive fatigue and loss of fine motor control in fingers. A firm grip is all that is necessary, and mild loads for the J Frame will be easily controlled with a firm grip during practice.

As for trigger pull, it needs to be steady, consistent, and straight back--no hesitation, no staging. As far as recommending a "quick" trigger pull, I guess that depends on your definition of the term. A full second or longer for a complete double action trigger pull is a good rule for someone who is learning to fire a double action revolver or semi-auto. A hurried trigger pull will do anything but improve accuracy.

As for sight alignment, it's always been the maxim: Front sight, front sight, front sight.

I was lucky enough to get my firearms training courtesy of the GOV. My instructors were federal officers, all of whom were former military firearms instructors. They taught me that "Perfect Practice makes Perfect." I suggest that you check around for recommendations of a good, experienced firearms instructor in your area, if you want to get the best hands-on-training. It helps to have a coach watching and advising. It saves you from practicing bad habits.

 

[hotrod150]

I use a combination of what Ayoob calls a "crush grip", and the "push with the gun hand - pull with the off hand" isometric Weaver stance. Both seem to help in keeping a steady sight picture. One of my Chiefs has a laser sight- it is helpful when dry-firing to see just how steady (or not!) the gun is on the target. When you can rapidly dry-fire all 5 shots without the laser going off-target, you will find that your range shooting will improve substantially.

 

[slappy27]

Practice, practice, practice.

Get some snap caps, and do a LOT of dry firing. Thousands of dry fires. Watch the laser when you dry fire. If the laser is all over the place,5 your shots will be inaccurate. Put a coin on top of the revolver, and practice dry firing until you can do it repeatedly without the coin falling off the revolver. I did 25 dry fires last night before the coin fell off, right handed, and I got to 25 left handed dry fires, tired of the exercises, and removed the coin from on top of the revolver.

Shooting is a perishable skill, so lack of practice will make you a worst shot.

J frames are easy to carry, but are really experts' guns when it comes time to fire the little guns. 7However, with plenty of practice, you can learn to be a pretty good shot even with a J frame.

This is what I have been doing since the ammo supply is scarce locally. This drill has resulted in me scoring better with my 642 than my Glock 27 during my annual LEOSA qualification for the last 2 years.

 

[66Park]

Thanks for all the good advice everyone. My Airweight is a DAO. I was firing factory .38 sp, 130 grain FMJ. Laser was covered after first one or two shots, no idea where it is sighted. I'll get some snap caps and practice more. Ammo id so hard to find around here I just can't shoot very much. I'll also look into some different grips. I do like the gun, and I feel the problems are all mine. Thanks again to all.

I definitely recommend getting 148 grain wadcutters or 158 grain bullets. As I mentioned earlier, 130 grain bullets shoot really low out of my M36. I mean like three or four inches low at 7 yards. That, in my opinion, is part of your problem. No matter how much you practice, if your bullets don't shoot to point of aim, you're going to be pretty frustrated!

 

[sac-gunslinger]

I used to own a model 60 and almost always shot it better than the 642 airweight.

The M60 is for good shooting, the M642 is good for your back!

 

[sac-gunslinger]

As I mentioned earlier, 130 grain bullets shoot really low out of my M36. I mean like three or four inches low at 7 yards.

I have taken a mill file to the front sight of my 642 to correct that problem. Of course, I am hosed if I plan to shoot anything other than 125 grains in the future. I guess that will be a good excuse to buy an XS sight system, eh?

BTW, I approached the front sight with great trepidiation. It is very, very easy to go toooo far with the file (don't ask me how I know).