2014 Revolver Nationals

[Mattoneps]

Hey Guys,

I was curious if anyone here shot or attended the Revolver Nationals today? I noticed the top 4 or 5 shooters were all shooting Minor. Im curious if they were shooting the new 929 and if so how they liked it? Im trying to get one ordered through my gun shops out here but they are having a hard time getting them.

What do you guys think of the 929 from what you've seen on the internet? I wish it was a 5" barrel honestly.

 

[buckeyefist]

I saw a gent with a 929 at a bowling pin shoot last week, he shot 4 times then the cylinder locked up against the forcing cone........he swears it was brand new.

When spinning the cylinder while open, the amount of runout was unbelievable. I cannot quite grasp some of the issues i have seen with Smith lately.

 

[David Sinko]

Interesting. Where was Miculek?

The top shooters are ALL shooting minor. Does this mean we will see more 625s for sale in the Classifieds?

Rob Leatham is amazing. What more can you say?

Dave Sinko

 

[Mattoneps]

Yea, Rob is the man. What is cylinder runout?

 

[buckeyefist]

When you look at the cylinder from the side, with it open, and spin it you can see that the front is wobbling. So when the cyl is closed the front of the cylinder touches the forcing cone during rotation at the high spot.

LOL.....thats the best i can do explaining it.....

Mabye this guy dropped the daggone thing, i dont know, but he swore it was just out of the box.

 

[David Sinko]

The 929 is still not available to the masses. And it doesn't look like any of the top shooters used one. Either the top sponsored shooters still can't get them or they don't want to change equipment this close to such a big match. Gotta go with what you know.

Dave Sinko

 

[oldafsp]

Repeated off center strikes on the ejector rod will cause the rod to bend.

I have fixed several K frames and one N frame that were fired in competition with this problem.
Mas Ayoob addresses this in this video:
Note that Mas is using the same revolver he shoots in IDPA..a Model 15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXUwI_d8JlA

 

[Mattoneps]

If they weren't using 929's do you know what minor revolver they were shooting. I would imagine it would have to be a 627, but I know making even minor PF with .38 isnt that common.

 

[David Sinko]

I'm pretty sure they all use an 8 shot 627 of some version or another. The 627 .357 Magnum is often loaded with .38 Short Colt brass for the faster reloads. I think Leatham uses an 8 shot 627 in .38 Super. I have seen Olhasso and Lentz shoot ICORE locally but I don't know if they use the same revolvers for USPSA. I can't imagine the 929 offering any advantage. Moonclipped .38 Short Colt works very well in competition and then for real life you can load the same revolver with .357 Magnum. That level of flexibility is impossible to beat.

Dave Sinko

 

[S&WIowegan]

I did not shoot the Revolver Nats. but am told one of the top five finishers did run a 929 and (obviously) did well. It's also true that 929s are hard to come by. One sold on GB last week for $1525.

Virtually everyone shooting minor is running a 5"bbl. 627. I believe Robbie ran a 627-4 in .38 Super. He is planning to put 929 cylinders in those dash 4s if he can get them. The predominant ammo is handloaded .38 Short Colt loaded with heavy bullets pushed by a fast powder. Recoil is very moderate.

The .38 Short Colt idea is not terribly new. I began loading it in 2008 using Starline brass and Hearthco moonclips specifically sized to fit the Starline extractor groove. Use a 'pointy' bullet and the reloads are fast!

Jerry was said to be shooting a Multigun match elsewhere. He knew Leathem REALLY wanted to beat him with the revolver(adding to the legend).

 

[Mattoneps]

Dave,

Ive never heard of the 38 SHort colt. I just spent some time reading about it, pretty interesting. I was looking into the 929 because I shoot Production 9mm sometime to so it would be nice to have my revolver and Glock shoot the same caliber for reloading purpose. I was looking at a 627 as well sometime down the road, maybe Ill just pick one of those up in .38 special and build up a load to make minor PF. I really dont feel like buying another caliber set up for my reloader (.38 Super). Thanks for your help.

 

[Mattoneps]

Well it seems like now that the 929 with a nice 9mm load is going to be the way to go over .38 Short Colt. Brass is much easier to find, and the overall case length is just a little shorter than the .38 Short Colt. All the big names in USPSA shoot the 627 in .38 Super probably because they are already loading ammo for their open guns. Im just going to cross my fingers and hope a 929 comes available soon. It would be nice to get a 929 with a 5" barrel instead of the 6.5"

 

[John M]

I was at USPSA revo nats this year, with a 4"627 Pro Series, running 38 Short Colts in Hearthco moonclips. 627 ran great, my brain, not so much...The 38 Short Colts reload very well with the right moonclips. And with anything from the rimmed .38 family, no reason to go through the added step of clipping up the ammo for casual practice (and unclipping when done).

So, the 929 is a solution looking for a problem, for me personally. Might be a different story if I was a 9mm guy that was not geared up to reload the .38 family.

According to this, there was 1 929 at the match

Revolver Nationals Equipment Survey - Revolver Match Announcements - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

(scroll to middle of thread to get to 2014 match)

 

[Mattoneps]

what is your load data for .38 short colts? Are you able to make minor PF easily?

 

[John M]

what is your load data for .38 short colts? Are you able to make minor PF easily?

Yes, easy to make 125 Power Factor. I ran 160gr Bayou Bullets under 3.7 grains Unique, at an OAL of 1.20. Empty cases will drop right out with that load, so it seems quite low pressure. Certainly no safety issue in a 627. But that load cuts it kind of too close for comfort (I barely made it thru the chrono stage at Revo Nats) and I'd probably reduce the OAL a bit to be safe.

I've not found any published 38 Short Colt loads other than for Cowboy-action type applications, but the case capacity is very similar to 9mm, so 9mm loads are a good reference. Or even 38 S&W, which is a similarly dimensioned cartridge.

 

[Mattoneps]

Awesome thanks. Im shooting a 625 right now, and Im looking to get an 8-shot wheel gun since shooting the 8-shot will be the way to compete now. I have a few more questions for you.

1) I assume you load it with a .38 cal bullet?
2) I read that you have to use the hearthco moonclips because of the size of the groove? Is that true?
3) Do you need to buy .38 short colt dies to reload it? I have read that people are using a .38 sizing die, 9mm expander and 9mm taper crimp die? Why do you have to use 38 and 9mm dies?

Thanks for your help, Im new to shooting revolvers and I am absolutely addicted. Thanks again.

 

[John M]

Awesome thanks. Im shooting a 625 right now, and Im looking to get an 8-shot wheel gun since shooting the 8-shot will be the way to compete now. I have a few more questions for you.

1) I assume you load it with a .38 cal bullet?
2) I read that you have to use the hearthco moonclips because of the size of the groove? Is that true?
3) Do you need to buy .38 short colt dies to reload it? I have read that people are using a .38 sizing die, 9mm expander and 9mm taper crimp die? Why do you have to use 38 and 9mm dies?

Thanks for your help, Im new to shooting revolvers and I am absolutely addicted. Thanks again.

1) Yes, I'm using .357 diameter (.38 cal bullets)
2) There are special Hearthco moonclips that TK Custom makes to fit Starline brass. These seem to work the best, because the Starline brass have a relatively wide groove where the clips go, so the clips can be thicker (hold the brass better, and are stiffer). The TK Custom moonclips for Starline will be too thick to fit the groove properly for most other types of brass.
3) You can get a .38 Short Colt die set from Lee, I think that's what I started with, but the set actually consists of parts and pieces taken from various calibers. What I have now is:
a) 38 Special resizer / decapper die
b) 38 S&W powder/expander die
c) 38 Auto bullet seating die
d) 9mm taper crimp die in 38 Special crimp die body

I think a), b), and c) came with the Lee 38 Short Colt die set, and I cobbled d) together myself

You have to do this because the .38 Short Colt cases are too short for all the .38 Special dies to work properly, even when full adjusted . No big deal.

 

[MWC2068]

The 929 is a 6 1/2 barrel with compensator 8 shot. I wanted a 5" barrel also so I ended up getting the 986, 7 shot with a 5 inch barrel which is a pro series model. I thought I could just use some of the same rounds I had loaded up for my semi's, not going to happen. The taper crimp for the semi is not enough and they do not have enough neck tension, the 6th and 7th start to creep forward and almost come out of the case. I have had to work up different loads for semi, and revolver. I also have the 627 4inch Pro Series in 357, that I still keep coming back to.

 

[Mattoneps]

1) Yes, I'm using .357 diameter (.38 cal bullets)
2) There are special Hearthco moonclips that TK Custom makes to fit Starline brass. These seem to work the best, because the Starline brass have a relatively wide groove where the clips go, so the clips can be thicker (hold the brass better, and are stiffer). The TK Custom moonclips for Starline will be too thick to fit the groove properly for most other types of brass.
3) You can get a .38 Short Colt die set from Lee, I think that's what I started with, but the set actually consists of parts and pieces taken from various calibers. What I have now is:
a) 38 Special resizer / decapper die
b) 38 S&W powder/expander die
c) 38 Auto bullet seating die
d) 9mm taper crimp die in 38 Special crimp die body

I think a), b), and c) came with the Lee 38 Short Colt die set, and I cobbled d) together myself

You have to do this because the .38 Short Colt cases are too short for all the .38 Special dies to work properly, even when full adjusted . No big deal.

I looked up the Lee Die set on Midway and it says the seating die is capable of providing a taper crimp. I also saw on there that a 38 short colt crimp die is about $65. I assume I could do the same thing you did and use my 9mm hornady crimp die in my .38 hornady die body.

I have lots of Chrono data for 125 PF for my 9mm Glock 34 with a 5.3" barrel. Do you recommend me using that load data to start with my .38 Short colts? I think IM pretty convinced on the 627 now, its such a versatile gun. Whats your opinion on the Pro Series V.S. the PC? I do like 4" barrels, but I have alwasy wanted to own a PC gun.

 

[S&WIowegan]

John M is giving you very good info on the Short Colt loading. I'll add a couple of items:

1. TK Custom and Hearthco are two separate and distinct companies. Both have EDM machines making custom moonclips. You can google them and do business with reliable people.

2. The crimp is very important in the process and should NOT be done at the seating die. If you don't crimp pretty hard the bullets will start to jump the crimp about number 6 or 7 of the string.

3. When using lead bullets(coated or lubed) it's a good idea to order them sized to .358". This is a practice utilized for decades to get best accuracy with lead in a 357 revolver.

Good luck!