AR as a home defense gun?

[Vinney47]

Even with all that , birdshot was waaaay too little penetration. 1-2inches of penetration at 5-ish yards is grossly inadaquate. If "close" means 5-7 inches that would change the situation, but that's not a realistic parameter.

This. Yes, birdshot will make a fantastic looking wound. 1-2 inches deep. This will be painful. But will it stop an attacker immediately? Maybe, maybe not. In life/death situations, adrenaline gets dumped into your blood stream. One effect is it suppresses pain; to the point even very significant injuries can be ignored (in the short term, to be dealt with later).

You really want something that is going to cause the attacker to stop out of necessity, not choice. Inflicting pain is of the later type - that is the attack can continue if the attacker chooses to fight through the pain. They may decide that the pain is too much, or not worth it, or whatever and stop/flee. Certain street drugs or help from their own body (adrenaline dump) can influence how they feel about it, and maybe they continue in trying to end you. But they have a choice. Do you really want to leave them with that choice?

Inciting rapid vital systemic failure is going to stop the attack, period. The attacker will be unable to carry on the attack because they are physically unable to do so, regardless of if they want to continue or not - they've got no choice in the matter. Bringing on that kind of certain stop to an attack - shutting down vital systems (nervous, circulatory, respiratory) is going to take more than bird shot. Those vital systems are well protected and you need adequate penetration into the body cavity to shut them down and end the attack with certainty.

If you discharge your firearm to make a statement - such as "stop attacking me", make it a demand and not a request.

 

[Waywatcher]

Here's some numbers to chew on; I find it easy to get lost in diameters so I quickly calculated square inches of lead in various loads. (Square inches being their area.)

0.77 sq. inches: 9 pellets of OO buckshot
0.98 sq. inches: 20 pellets of #3 buckshot
0.04 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 in expanded
0.16 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 if it miraculously expands to double its diameter. (0.448")

 

[bhayles]

0.04 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 in expanded
0.16 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 if it miraculously expands to double its diameter. (0.448")

This completely ignores the ballistics of a 5.56 M193 or M855 bullet when it enters a body. They don't expand, miraculously or otherwise. They tumble (actually they swap ends and proceed big end first) and create a huge internal wound while tumbling, and they fragment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_3Yyo0Nt0

 

[Vinney47]

Here's some numbers to chew on; I find it easy to get lost in diameters so I quickly calculated square inches of lead in various loads. (Square inches being their area.)

0.77 sq. inches: 9 pellets of OO buckshot
0.98 sq. inches: 20 pellets of #3 buckshot
0.04 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 in expanded
0.16 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 if it miraculously expands to double its diameter. (0.448")

Take a look at this video. Start watching at about 7 minutes in to see results of 3 different .223 rounds fired through 4 layers of denim, pork ribs and into a pork shoulder (so we see real results of clothing and rib cage penetration and into soft tissue). The wound cavities are impressive and not for the weak stomach. It might surprise you what happens inside a body once the bullet makes that 0.04 sq. inch hole...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Not much shotgun ammo? Seriously?

This is how it looks year round down here. This is Sportsman Warehouse. Two isles about 30ft long piled high.
Probably 80% bird/target, but there's plenty of buckshot. And lots of clays too.

 

[A10]

Thanks, Rastoff, for the interesting thread! Lots of opinions....

Mine? I've always viewed home defense as a 3 gun event......

Rifle like device of choice? Itty bitty AK. Yup, over penetration might be an issue, but if I need to use it, I need to use it.

I would like to see some penetration tests on 7.62 by 39 light sporting loads.....haven't seen much that is definitive.

 

[bhayles]

Take a look at this video. Start watching at about 7 minutes in to see results of 3 different .223 rounds fired through 4 layers of denim, pork ribs and into a pork shoulder (so we see real results of clothing and rib cage penetration and into soft tissue). The wound cavities are impressive and not for the weak stomach. It might surprise you what happens inside a body once the bullet makes that 0.04 sq. inch hole...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aq3INocE28

Apples to oranges. Waywatcher was talking about 5.56 and this video is about .223...two rounds that are pretty different once you get past bullet diameter.

 

[Vinney47]

Apples to oranges. Waywatcher was talking about 5.56 and this video is about .223...two rounds that are pretty different once you get past bullet diameter.

Not really, and certainly not in this context. The 5.56 and .223 rounds are interchangeable in terms of AR's. I didn't find posting up the size of holes in square inches to be an honest entry into the discussion, since that is NOT the whole story. AR's are not limited to 5.56 ammo, so just because Waywatcher chose that designation over .223 does not make my post and accompanying video an invalid piece of information to consider.

 

[Waywatcher]

This completely ignores the ballistics of a 5.56 M193 or M855 bullet when it enters a body. They don't expand, miraculously or otherwise. They tumble (actually they swap ends and proceed big end first) and create a huge internal wound while tumbling, and they fragment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50_3Yyo0Nt0

Not often enough to be counted on working when you need it--and even when it does, sometimes it begins tumbling after 7" or more of soft tissue travel.

The best bullets in 5.56 do expand--such as 50 grain TSX, 64 grain Nosler Bonded (FBI load), 62 grain TBBC, etc.

Also, .223 vs 5.56 is like Red Delicious vs Honeycrisp apples, not "apples to oranges."

 

[Rastoff]

Not much shotgun ammo? Seriously?

This is how it looks year round down here. This is Sportsman Warehouse. Two isles about 30ft long piled high.
Probably 80% bird/target, but there's plenty of buckshot. And lots of clays too.

There are places around here with similar displays. Their least expensive target shot shells are $9/box. So, yeah, it's around, but I'm not paying those prices.

I guess the days of $5/box of target shells are gone.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I don't know about target shells, but if anyone needs HD ammo they can buy a lifetime supply here. 12 Gauge | SGAmmo.com

 

[Chew]

There are places around here with similar displays. Their least expensive target shot shells are $9/box. So, yeah, it's around, but I'm not paying those prices.



I guess the days of $5/box of target shells are gone.

Yeah, I haven't seen it that cheap in a while. Even for really cheap stuff like Estate.

It's $6.99 a box for Remington gun clubs at bass pro near me, and online.

They're what I like to run in my Auto 5 to shoot skeet. I think I'll get the ole auto 5 out this weekend and sling some clay birds at the farm. I found a pretty stock with a good pad on it. Easier on the shoulder.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[2hawk]

Not often enough to be counted on working when you need it--and even when it does, sometimes it begins tumbling after 7" or more of soft tissue travel.

The best bullets in 5.56 do expand--such as 50 grain TSX, 64 grain Nosler Bonded (FBI load), 62 grain TBBC, etc.
....

The purpose of these rounds (the bonded referred to above) is to defeat barriers, ie, hold together when going through auto glass and sheet metal, or building materials. That may make them "best" for law enforcement, but they aren't what I would consider best for HD.

If I am going for the AR in a home defense situation, I have a mag loaded with a 55 gr frangible to start with, and then (as if I'd ever need more than one mag) my own Mk 262 copycat load with a 75 gr. OTM.

(A little info on the Mk 262 here: The Best 5.56 Load: The Black Hills MK 262 Mod 1 - Shooting Times)

I chose the 55 gr specifically for it's reduced ability to penetrate walls. The 75 gr load is better in terms of defeating barriers, but still not as good as the bonded ammo referenced above. But that's OK for my needs. If I really need to shoot through things my 590 with Brenneke KO slugs will do that job quite well.

As has been posted, you can't really compare the wounding mechanism of 5.56/.223 with handgun or shotgun rounds. Velocity is the key for 5.56/.223 to work well; they yaw and fragment, creating a large permanent wound cavity.

Here's a couple of articles about AR ammo I found interesting. They are more about the failures of 5.56 in military engagements, but they have a fair amount of information on the wounding mechanism and effects of 5.56.

http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

At close range, not shooting through barriers, I would have complete faith in my AR to get the job done with the ammo I have. I would NOT use M855, it's designed to go through light armor at extended ranges, and it'll zip right through a lot things at close range.

ETA Good info on the Federal and Speer LE ammo here: http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

 

[CrustyShellback]

From my training and applications, pistols are a last line of defense. Also, the numbers don't lie. Handguns don't put people down... rifles/shotguns do.

I know some tacticool people like to take issue with the concept of "point in the general direction and pull the trigger" for a shotgun. They want people to put more thought into it. That's fine for someone not used to the firearm. However, I don't need to think about it, too much. Because its what I always grabbed and used. Its what I trained with and made sure I could shoot the dang thing with my eyes closed (blatant exaggeration alert). Especially in a shipboard environment with steel everywhere. Aiming down a p-way, you're going to hit, whatever you're shooting at.

I can pick up my shotgun, shoot from the hip and hit a man-size target every time, out to 50 yds (granted, that's also stationary), 00 buck. From the 1st shot to the last. That is the ultimate HD weapon, right there. I know people will debate until their face is blue, but I'm right.

In a home situation, where that distance is 40' maximum, down a hallway, 175 lumen strobe blinding/disorienting their heads... I like my chances.

Next up, would probably be my M&P. Its a tiny, little, short, 6 - 7 pnd carbine, its an extremely fast acquisition and effective firearm. Mount a good tactical light up front, laser if you please and you're set. The .223/5.56 is an excellent CQB rnd.

The only thing I use my pistol for, is CCW and if at home, its to get me to the gun safe, if the shotgun, one in the pipe, 6 in the mag... 6 on the side mount (its out and ready to go - always) isn't going to be enough.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

There are places around here with similar displays. Their least expensive target shot shells are $9/box. So, yeah, it's around, but I'm not paying those prices.

I guess the days of $5/box of target shells are gone.

If you have a Bass Pro in your area they have Remington target shells on sale for $5

 

[Rastoff]

If you have a Bass Pro in your area they have Remington target shells on sale for $5

The nearest Bass Pro is about 120 miles away. The savings kinda gets eaten up in the gas. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

 

[ihaschzbrgr]

m&p15t with (2) 30 5.56 PMAGS (w/ coupler) in case it's a ninja

 

[mbjku]

As much as I like my m&p15 I wouldn't use it as first defense weapon unless some serious massive zombi attacks Otherwise it is my Sig P226 .40S&W with HP ammo and my Remington 870 with birdshots are near to me every night and ready to shot.
But I believe it would be interesting experience to use my m&p 15 and Saiga 7.62x39 for serious home attack prevention or stopping some criminals with it, I would say it is my second defense level option. Both are pretty powerful weapons and I wouldn't joke about.

 

[rock_castle]

Here's some numbers to chew on; I find it easy to get lost in diameters so I quickly calculated square inches of lead in various loads. (Square inches being their area.)

0.77 sq. inches: 9 pellets of OO buckshot
0.98 sq. inches: 20 pellets of #3 buckshot
0.04 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 in expanded
0.16 sq. inches: 1 round of 5.56 if it miraculously expands to double its diameter. (0.448")

These numbers are relatively meaningless as they don't account for velocity and energy.

By the way, my HD weapon of choice would probably be my G19 loaded with Gold Dot 124gr +p only because it is the weapon I carry most often and the weapon nearest to me when in bed. The AR would be my second choice since it would be most likely harder to get to, followed by my shotgun. If all things were equal (which isn't the case in the real world) then I would choose the AR first.

 

[rojodiablo]

The nearest Bass Pro is about 120 miles away. The savings kinda gets eaten up in the gas. Thanks for the heads up anyway.

Not that bad; down 138 to Phelan, switch over to either 395 to the 15, or the backroads direct to the 15. Rancho Cucamonga. About 50 miles, and an easy drive if you head out early.

If I have to pick and have the option?? Shotgun. Reach around the corner, and send you a little something special to remember me by..... Confront you head on...... We will paint the walls together. I'll use the Mossberg brush, you can be the paint can. In the interest of putting a helluva lot of volume in the perp, and having a cross-activity use ammo, I am kinda fond of 3" goose loads; tungsten T shot. We threw an old leather jacket (Heavy style) over a trash can. And from about 10 yards, let one fly. I was pleasantly convinced....... it will do the job with amazing knock-down power, healthy penetration, and I already have 3 boxes of the stuff, so it's kind of a no brainer.
I agree with almost all points; very well explained by folks who have a pretty good idea of what would likely happen.
I will say: I have been shot at 15 yards with #7-1/2 shot while quail hunting. It HURTS. And..... the shooter was a friend, and he had the pleasure of fishing 40 or so pellets out of my shoulder and back. (Beer and aspirin for the field surgery was the call of the day. No more shooting, we had had enough. But the beer and aspirin??? Better choice than getting shot!)
I have also been legitimately involved in 2 shooting scenarios. Both times, I carried a 9504. And IMO, Hydra-Shock ammo is very effective, but the penetration was moderate. But the hit power was basically enough to stop the situation. I am confident that it would not over-penetrate were you to open up and let fly, and not make a good hit. If you DO hit your target? 9mm is going to lose its' steam, and it might make it thru an arm, or a soft body side, but it will be out of gas.
If I were sending an AR round? I'd use a common hunting round like a soft point 62gr, or a ballistic tip. Not really a frangible fan; if the perp has a heavy jacket on, he's going to be VERY sore, and not too likely to continue pressing the issue with you..... but he WOULD walk away unless you hit the CNS cleanly. Better a hunting round with a little weight behind it, coupled with good expansion properties. A much better choice than the hard ammos like XM193 or 855. Both will zip right thru easily and keep on going if there is no hard contact made with bone. I saw it in real time, years and years ago. Bang-zip, bad guy still moving and fighting, while leaking pretty good. Got tired and sore, and was overtaken and subdued. (Not by me. I was only a spectator of sorts.) All he received for his trouble was a couple stitches. No full blown surgery needed. So keep this in mind.