Army looking for a new handgun

[Watchdog]

Single action won't be coming back.

Don't look now, but it never went away.

And when the 1911 was issued you had to carry chamber empty and hammer down.

That's just factually wrong. You are familiar with the expression "Cocked and Locked" aren't you? Otherwise known as "Condition 1"? Meaning one in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb safety on.

To quote Jeff Cooper:
"...John Browning intended the 1911 to be carried in Condition One is evidenced by the fact that a major feature of the gun is the thumb safety. There is no earthly use for the thumb safety -– the part doesn't even function -– unless the hammer is cocked. It should also be noted that the up/safe, down/fire operation of the single-action 1911 thumb safety is natural and intuitive."

 

[gunhobbit]

That's just factually wrong. You are familiar with the expression "Cocked and Locked" aren't you? Otherwise known as "Condition 1"? Meaning one in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb safety on.

I believe what kbm was referring to was - is - the military* requirement that the firearm be carried that way, NOT the mechanics of the situation. As anyone who's been an E-grade knows, the Higher Ups could give a rat's patoot for what Saint John believed - or what's best for the troops.


*Army, anyway, from personal experience. Can't speak to what the other services require.

Back to the OP though, given that disease kills more troops than handguns do,** YTH does anybody care about this?


**And, as Patton famously said, making the other guy die for his country is the name of the game.

 

[Doug M.]

No question you are right about the correct manner in which to carry that pistol, but the "training" and protocols the military had for the 1911 and good practice never overlapped except in the most select groups of HSLD personnel.

 

[Mack]

1911's done right are marvelous weapons, but no one has ever been able to mass produce one "done right". Plus the manual of arms is to complicated for the average GI. Really when you get down to it what is needed is to loosen the restrictions on expanding bullets like they did with rifle ammo. The US was not a signatory of the Hague Conference of 1899 and anyone who seeks to make war more humane is a fool anyway.

 

[PALADIN85020]

With respect to the M1911/M1911A1 being too complicated for the average soldier - I guess the troops in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam were WAY more intelligent? They seemed to handle it pretty well.

As for the military insisting on empty chamber, loaded magazine carry, that was no real hindrance to fast action in spite of the stupidity of the edict. When I was a kid, I saw an old Army Master Sgt. load and fire his 1911A1 from the holster when it was in that condition. It was on the old TV show "You asked for it." The old leather holsters had a projection inside. If the gun was twisted just right, jacked up and down in the holster, it would then emerge from the holster loaded, cocked and ready to fire. He was blazing fast; a blink of the eye and he was on target with one in the pipe. If you weren't inclined to such "cheating," it still didn't take long to jack the slide in the normal manner - providing you had two usable hands.

I carried a .45 - my own - on both active duty and in the National Guard with a loaded magazine but empty chamber in accordance with regs. I never felt underarmed or at any disadvantage. I had complete confidence in the reliability and accuracy of the gun, and in my ability to make effective .45 caliber holes in whatever I might have chosen to shoot.

When you're using ball (FMJ) ammo, bigger IS better. Look up Alvin York on the internet to see why he received the MOH for his work with an M1911. He managed to put down six Germans who charged him with fixed bayonets with one.

John

(c) 2014 JLM

 

[Smith-Nut]

We carry the SIG 210 with a round in the chamber, the hammer back and the safety on "safe" (only way to carry it if it has to be usefull). If you don't have a round in the chamber you can't fire the gun if your week hand is injured (ok there are technics to chamber a round with only one hand but they don't work in the field when one second is what is the difference between you and your enemy).

Regarding 10 mm we did try that. After years of testing we have come to the conclusion that the "nine" is very good enough.

 

[Watchdog]

I believe what kbm was referring to was - is - the military* requirement that the firearm be carried that way, NOT the mechanics of the situation.

Oh. Okay. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

 

[kbm6893]

Oh. Okay. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

Yes. I was referring to the military protocol of carrying empty chamber and hammer down. After 9/11 I was "volunteered" to get carbine training with the NYPD. I shot 20 rounds from a Mini 14 and was "trained". I already owned an AR so it was no big deal. They gave me a Mini 14 and told me to stand a post on top if 1 Police Plaza. 20 round magazine with FIVE rounds in it, and NOT chambered

Talking to National Guardsmen at Penn Station, they confided to me their M16 rifles had THREE rounds in their 30 round mags and NOT chambered.

 

[DanP7]

S&W isn't listening because they have been a sleep for years.

I wouldn't be surprised to see that they were perpetuating all of this.

All of the major manufacturers have tried to persuade the DoD to have new trials.

The M&P 40 with a thumb safety and a few small modifications would make a pretty compelling sidearm to issue to the military. Cheap, easy to use, easy to fix, good capacity, good set of safety features, fairly rugged, will accept accessories, and a compact "officer's" version already exists.

I see no reason why the USA would need to continue the NATO 9mm standard. As it has already been discussed, pistols are seldom used in issue or combat. Most military members these days will never even qualify with an M9. The Cold War is over and we dominate the logistics for any conflict, so the entire concept of NATO commonality makes as much sense as a NATO standard bayonet.

Honestly I think where all of this will go is that the M9 will go nowhere. But the high speed guys that do all or most of the trigger pulling and Osama shooting will have the ability to select from numerous other pistols. This already is the case, but I see the pool of units with that freedom growing.


All in all, the M9 remains a pretty darn nice handgun. Although a 5906 is much nicer.

 

[rogo123]

A new US military handgun?

The biggest problem with stopping power, of course is the Geneva Convention FMJ bullet. It's time to forget this, and NATO requirements. Has the enemy signed on to the Geneva Convention? The old .45 Colt was a stopper, as was the 1860 army with soft lead round ball, but you know I'm just kidding....

I would think S&W could field a good candidate, as well as Glock and Sig. I don't know what Colt would offer. I don't think Ruger could be a player with the SR platform without major changes.
Calipers discussed initially are .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
(.38 Super anyone, ha ha, I like it)

One final note: "Handguns don't win wars, but they save the lives of the men who do."-----Col. Jeff Cooper

 

[silentflyer]

Didn't some guy named Browning design the finest combat semi-auto ever about 100 years ago? Why "fix" what was never broken to begin with...

 

[gunhobbit]

The biggest problem with stopping power, of course is ...

That a handgun doesn't really have it and this is really a tempest in a teapot. Every army in the world equips its mainline infantry with rifles - and maybe shotguns - though for the ultimate in stopping power you're really wanting a PRC-77.*



*and an on-call battery of 155mm guns, of course.

 

[GaryS]

Didn't some guy named Browning design the finest combat semi-auto ever about 100 years ago? Why "fix" what was never broken to begin with...

Yes, it's perfect. That's why there are no less than 533,000 aftermarket parts for the design

 

[Tom_R]

The US military uses fmj hardball ammunition, so the 9 mm is very limited based on those parameters. If they could use what we could use, the 9mm would be viable.

The Berettas are tired,can't they don't want to replace them evidently.

I think that given their parameters .45acp is the most likely cartridge to get adopted.

Will it be a Sig-Sauer, Smith and Wesson, or H&K that is used with the cartridge, who knows?

I think Sig and H&K would be good choices for sure.

I don't know enough about the current Smith offerings on Autos to say up or down.

 

[amazingflapjack]

"After years of testing we have come to the conclusion that the "nine" is very good enough."
Last edited by Smith-Nut; Today at 11:42 AM.

YEP.

 

[Smith-Nut]

"After years of testing we have come to the conclusion that the "nine" is very good enough."
Last edited by Smith-Nut; Today at 11:42 AM.

YEP.

But don't get me wrong I would personally go for something else in privat life (still 9 mm but not FMJ).

As a military weapon so many things have to be taken into consideration.

Lets take the 10 mm. No one else uses it (our allied) so on the battlefield a 10 mm would be of no use, when you run out of AMMO (and you do) 1000 of miles away from home. In Iraq we (the Danish forces) did borrow 5,56 from American troops and I know of Visa Versa.

Also a more potent round tends to make a normal "grunt" (soldier) shoot worce. I've been an instructor for over 30 years. Put a .357 into a average soldiers hands and he will take much more time taking down multipol targets. Also many will jerk off the shots.

A military sidearm is for many the last resorce. As mentioned it will be for extreme close combat. It has to be simpel and SAFE (no stupid SA only weapons).

So based on logistics, the avereage soldier a 9 mm is very ok as a sidearm for a soldier.

 

[smutt]

Last year on a whim, I bought a new Colt Series 70 Mark IV. Then this year, I bought a 71-year old Remington Rand WWII .45. After hundreds of rounds through both of them without a single malfunction, guess what?

Jeff Cooper was right.

Welcome to the party pal....................

 

[Nemo288]

Maybe it won't be a SIG:

BBC News - 'Export ban' for arms maker SIG Sauer over Colombia guns

===
Nemo

 

[s2harry]

Yes its been talked about for a while now, the Marines want the 1911 45ACP, however it is slow and lacks power and round count for the package...the 40S&W is another choice but the accelerated wear and tear of the smaller guns is a problem.

This why the 10mm would be better suited to their needs...But (poly ticks) meaning Many Blood sucking idiots will push the same bull **** 9mm this and 1911 that and 45 ancient rounds all over again rather than look at the ballistic potential 10mm brings to the shooting platform. ;D

Yes food for thought Shadow. Uh not to diss your idea at all but makes me think. (hurts sometimes)

"The .45 is slow(what does that mean?) and lacks power(hmm) and round count for the package". Well para makes the 14 shot frame for 1911 so 14 .45s plus 2 extra mags. That would take care of the round count but now were talking adding weight to an already 100 plus pound pack. 5.56 ammo food and gear, M4, night vision, batteries knife. Some packs are closer to 150# I hear.


Shooting a guy with 10 mm FMJ would mean a pass through? How much energy would he feel? Who is going to handle a 10mm hard kicking gun well? The .357 Sig is also a thought but again pass through shot and 9mm dia hole. Maybe no matter what cartridge use a Flat Point 'cause there will be no Gold Dots on the Battle Field.

Why do they have a handgun. For Officers, To save your bacon when you are changing a mag. To hold on prisoners. What else? Doctors Nurses Supply staff?

Dont know the answer but we need something.

 

[s2harry]

Army Wants a Harder-Hitting Pistol

Makes me wonder what will happen to the 200K Berettas.
Given the present "thinking" in Washington, they will probably melt them down.
Now if the Army is in charge of this maybe they will sell them.
And what will happen to availability if S&W wins this contract?
Why not a 7 or 8 shot 357 Mag revolver? Or a Coonan?
Coonan .357 Magnum 1911 Semi-Automatic Pistol
Whatever, this is going to be interesting to any handgun enthusiast.

---
Nemo

ATF can send them across the border...thats worked out good before!