Old Timers Advice, Interested?

growr said:
So, how is it that a progressive cannot load as accurately as a single stage?

Is it the re-sizing of the casing? Both machines are pressing a fired casing into a die to reform it....so, if I remove my Redding die from my Dillon and put it into a single stage it is now better formed or more accurate? Same die..

Maybe it is the powder measure....my powder measure on my 550 Dillon is VERY consistent...well under 1/2 a grain variation with ball powder....but then my RCBS and Hornaday deliver the same standards....maybe it is not the powder measure after all...

How about the seating die....same argument as the re-sizing die...will probably seat much more accurately if I move it to my single stage won't it? So far not yet. Same die being used...just a different press.

So where is it that a progressive is so inaccurate? Is it because with each pull of the handle it does 4 things at the same time?

Please help me understand this as I don't get this thinking.

Randy

PS. I have used ammo from my 550 in the very demanding course of fire known as Palma (800-900-1000 yards)and was able to fire Master level scores. Scores didn't go up when I loaded on my single stage
Click to expand...
The simple answers are:

(1) watch the toolhead of a Lee Classic Turret (severe), a Dillon 650 (minor), and a quality single stage (none) paying careful attention to the toolhead and you'll begin to get the thinking - unless you believe the case/case+bullet can correct the slop angle because of some kind of die "float".

(2) Powder is often hand measured to fractions of a tenth on a single stage.

(3) Both your presses apparently produce ammo that exceeds your capabilities, so (1) & (2) may not be important to you.
 
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A guy named G. David Tubb loads his MATCH ammo on a Dillon 550.

If you're not familiar with Tubb; he's won the the NRA High Power Rifle Championships at Camp Perry eleven times.
I seriously doubt he would deliberately handicap himself with a progressive press.

I certainly understand and appreciate the sentiment you express OP.
I'm long in the tooth myself and have been reloading for 40 years.
However I do use progressive presses for match, range and hunting ammo.
I am a past competitor in NRA Action Pistol and USPSA, holding "Hi-Master" and "Master" classifications respectively.
I teach classes in self defense handgun currently on a volunteer/local level.
I shoot a LOT.
My progressive presses are certainly capable of producing acceptably accurate ammo quickly.
I too enjoy reloading and load developement as part of the "shooting experience". My progessives simply do it quicker.

I also drive a car daily rather than ride a horse because it's quicker and easier; although a horse might be more fun...
 
As I read through this post, the first thing that came to mind is Steve Carrell in "Anchorman." You know the scene when he shouts out "Angry Words!" when everyone is arguing. People here seem to be looking for any reason to defend the press they use to reload. If your press gets the job done for you, then that's great.

Now if you aren't using a RCBS Pro-melt, you aren't doing it right :p
 
If you can not at least respect and appreciate the comments of a reloader with 50 years experience, just leave this thread alone and go hit a punching bag for awhile. Better yert, take lots of ammo out to the range and shoot until you feel better and then you have the added bonus of getting out the giant progressive to reload those spent rounds!:D

I wonder how many of these guys drive a Hummer???
 
I'm a relative newbie with only 20 years of reloading experience, but all of mine has been done on a Rockchucker. I've REALLY considered a Dillon 650 a few times, but never gone through with it. I love gadgets and think I'd enjoy the whole set up process. I've gone so far as to have the whole order put together on their website and not hitting "send". I guess my biggest reservation has always been the slightly increased risk of a squib load and subsequent kaboom.
 
Geeze, I'm just a newbie with only 5 years reloading experience. Started with Rockchucker II--which I still use for rifle. Used a Redding T-7 for the past year for handgun, then a deal came along on a Dillon 550, and as many of you know, with lots of deliberation switched out the T-7 for the 550. Am overly concerned about charge issues, but find the manual indexing still allows me to easily watch and verify loads, while processing 4 pieces of brass at a time instead of 1. So I've used the 3 main types of presses and liked each, and each has their own quirks.

Love shooting almost as much as reloading.
 
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Reloading since 1961

I started loading rifle ammo on a Lyman C-press. Hated it as the leaning shell had to be guided into the die. My dad's friend was a sporting goods wholesaler. My next outfit was built around an RCBS Rockchucker, which I got wholesale and which I still have and use for rifle ammo and universal decapping.

I eventually moved up to the Dillon 550. I can honestly say that I see no difference in the quality of my reloads with either press. The trick for me is in the die set-up and case preparation. As you know, dies can be improperly adjusted on any press.

Also, I test check my powder by putting every tenth charge on the scale. With any powder throw, it is wise to replenish the reservoir frequently to insure more uniform charges. My Dillon throws charges as uniformly as my original Lyman powder throw. No complaints in that department.

I fail to see a reason for the mass debate regarding single vs. progressive presses. They both have a place in reloading and both will remain in my workshop until my estate disposes of them.
 
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Twoboxer said:
The simple answers are:

(1) watch the toolhead of a Lee Classic Turret (severe), a Dillon 650 (minor), and a quality single stage (none) paying careful attention to the toolhead and you'll begin to get the thinking - unless you believe the case/case+bullet can correct the slop angle because of some kind of die "float".

(2) Powder is often hand measured to fractions of a tenth on a single stage.

(3) Both your presses apparently produce ammo that exceeds your capabilities, so (1) & (2) may not be important to you.
Click to expand...

Yes, basically.
Accuracy is a product of consistency, among many other things. The more inconsistencies that are introduced by the equipment, the more chances for error in the finished product. Rigidity is important because if there is any play it allows the tolerances to open up and the operator can not do anything to correct it. This applies to every press, as not all single stage presses are rock solid and are worse than any quality progressive.

And you also have to consider the operator of those machines. Just because one is using a single stage and the other is using a progressive doesn't mean the single stage will make more accurate ammo. How the brass is prepared is important to quality ammo and a slouch with the best press in the world won't necessarily make better ammo than a good loader with a cheap press.
 
I can not speak for the OP but I read his post that even if his Dillon can crank out xxx number of rounds per hour he would just as soon go slow and methodically.

I know the way he wrote it may seem different but I do not think he was saying that the Dillon made poor ammo. He has time, been loading a long time so no need to churn out hundreds of rounds a one time.

More about enjoy the reloading process rather than just get her done! I wrote a thread about single stage presses and got thrown in a roadside ditch.;)
 
Ok, I understand what the OP was trying to say.

But a lot of this debate (in the larger sense ) is to a large extent putting the cart before the horse. The debate on this subject is largely controled by the amount of ammo per loading session / shooting session/ week / month / year that a shooter needs/ percieves/ desires. Those that need/ wish huge piles of ammo at a crack , inherently gravitate to progressives. Those that have more (vaguely defined and subjective) normal requirements are a lot more flexable in their processes and equipment. And that's not a value judgement as to whom is more worthy or serious as a shooter. Action pistol types , or run-n-gun AR people can go thru a cpl mags in the same time period someone else shoots one group, and all of them are happy , and serious shooters within their element.

For some reloading is at best a nesecarry evil. For some it is an equal hobby in itself. Some people Like to concentrate on each individual step , and even prefer to perform each operation by feel.

The other major variable is some people settle on one specific load , and just want hundreds and thousands of the same thing. Others like to constantly experement. Either to chase absolute perfection , or to have multiple different loads for same cal.
 
Twoboxer said:
The simple answers are:

(1) watch the toolhead of a Lee Classic Turret (severe), a Dillon 650 (minor), and a quality single stage (none) paying careful attention to the toolhead and you'll begin to get the thinking - unless you believe the case/case+bullet can correct the slop angle because of some kind of die "float".

(2) Powder is often hand measured to fractions of a tenth on a single stage.

(3) Both your presses apparently produce ammo that exceeds your capabilities, so (1) & (2) may not be important to you.
Click to expand...

1) yes, poorly made progressives have more slop, you are paying for precision when you buy better machines.
2) BS, measuring powder to tighter tolerances than 1/10gr is wasting time. Internal volume of cases will be as much as 1.0gr in match grade brass, depending on caliber. So unless you are weighing case internal volume to the nearest 1/10gr, measuring powder finer than that is wasting time w/ no appreciable result.
3) quality of ammo is not type of press dependent anymore, maybe 40yrs ago, but not anymore. But a high end machine, learn how to use it, reload with confidence.
 
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Biggfoot44 said:
Ok, I understand what the OP was trying to say.

But a lot of this debate (in the larger sense ) is to a large extent putting the cart before the horse. The debate on this subject is largely controled by the amount of ammo per loading session / shooting session/ week / month / year that a shooter needs/ percieves/ desires. Those that need/ wish huge piles of ammo at a crack , inherently gravitate to progressives. Those that have more (vaguely defined and subjective) normal requirements are a lot more flexable in their processes and equipment. And that's not a value judgement as to whom is more worthy or serious as a shooter. Action pistol types , or run-n-gun AR people can go thru a cpl mags in the same time period someone else shoots one group, and all of them are happy , and serious shooters within their element.

For some reloading is at best a nesecarry evil. For some it is an equal hobby in itself. Some people Like to concentrate on each individual step , and even prefer to perform each operation by feel.

The other major variable is some people settle on one specific load , and just want hundreds and thousands of the same thing. Others like to constantly experement. Either to chase absolute perfection , or to have multiple different loads for same cal.
Click to expand...

Well said. That is how I took it also.

Folks just get to defensive about their Blue Machines!:D
 
Rule3 said:
Well said. That is how I took it also.

Folks just get to defensive about their Blue Machines!:D
Click to expand...

I don't think it's even that. It's just some folks are stuck in a mind set & give out false info; ie, you can't achieve quality unless you hand weigh powder & load on a ss press. That idea is just wrong, not JMO, it is wrong in todays technology. IF Tubbs can load record setting 1000yd ammo on a 550, then you or I can. Maybe The OP didn't mean that but implication was there, just read the post again. Red or Blue, I just like the facts to be there. Leave the emotional diatribe to the liberals in the Govt.
 
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It's what each handloader.........

The thread is getting off kilter but let's understand a few things. Handloading has the potential to turn out superior ammo but it can also turn out cruddy ammo.

It doesn't matter the type of machine you use or the rate that you turn them out. Somebody who wants superior ammo will be meticulous about what he does and have equipment that suits him best. Setting up dies to run 'perfectly' is in itself a part of reloading where great care can be taken. If someone just wants to just turn out ammo, he can be not so meticulous about what he does. I try to turn out good ammo, I've had a few problems like hard to chamber rounds or high primers that can all be fixed. It shoots just fine.

In short, speed is one factor, quality is another and they can both vary a LOT.
 
I started reloading over 40 years ago when I was a young cop raising two kids and making house payments on a minimal salary. If I wanted to shoot I had to reload, period. I scavenged brass, salvaged range lead for casting bullets, and several of us would go together on bulk powder buys to save a few bucks. Used to get a lot of military surplus powders for a couple bucks per pound, but had to buy by the keg.

Now I reload to assure myself of a supply of ammunition, especially when retail supplies are tight. I also shoot several antique rifles for which ammunition is either unavailable or very high priced (.45 Sharps Express, .45-90 Winchester, .348 Winchester, .25-20 Winchester, .22 Savage Hi Power, .38-40, and a few other vintage calibers that might otherwise cost me a couple of bucks every time I pull the trigger, but I can cast bullets and reload cartridges for maybe 20 or 30 cents each).

First thing I do when I get a gun in a new caliber is order a set of dies and a bullet mold or two. Still using two single-stage presses that are both about 40 years old. My bottom pour lead pit is about 35 years old. My lubricator-sizer is about 35 years old. They all still work just fine.

Best regards.
 
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