Unusual Box of Federal .38 Spl

[koz5614]

I went to the Allentown PA show today, and while picking around one of the tables, spied an old Red/White box of Federal Ammo. I was hoping it was 125gr .357, but it ended up being 110gr .38Spl. The end flaps are marked:

38 SPECIAL
110 GRAIN CONTROLLED
EXPANSION BULLET
NO. 38F-TD
FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT USE ONLY

They are SJHP bullets, and the nickel cases are head stamped "FC 38" with no +P designation. The back of the box does indicate the rounds are loaded to higher breach pressures than other .38 Special cartridges, and that the rounds should not be used in aluminum cylinder or aluminum framed guns.

Anybody have any info on this loading? I've never seen these box markings before. Thanks.

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

How was the Allentown show today? See anything interesting? Last few times I have been there it seemed like the same stuff as before, and all the dealers were busy visiting with each other. Any deals?

 

[federali]

Contract Ammo

The ammo you found was made to federal specifications and contracted by the Treasury Dept. It is indeed +P or higher even though the headstamp doesn't mention it.

I'm surprised somebody was selling this stuff as it was never made for retail trade. Somewhere in its history, this box of ammo got "liberated" for personal use.

 

[JohnK]

The border patrol (INS), for some time, used a 110 gr. +P load.

It was supposed to travel about 1100 fps, but fell short in the duty 4" barrels. Penetration was iffy at best.

The load was replaced by a 357 Mag 110 gr load, about 1984.

In 1987, they went with the 9mm +P+ 115 gr. HP.

Other details are covered in chapter 25, in Marshall and Sanow's book,"STOPPING POWER".

 

[koz5614]

Thanks for the information. I am always on the lookout for old "Red box" Federal Ammo. This box was only $20, so I figure I'd take the plunge. Any idea of the velocity?
SPEEDGUNNER- Basically the same stuff. I've given up trying to get deals on guns; most of the time, I just laugh at the prices. There was a 940 no dash for $649. I spend most of my time picking through tables. This show, I picked up two Bucheimer Semi-Shoulder holsters: a B1035 and B1045 for the princely sum of $6 for both! I don't even know what they fit, but I know I probably made out OK.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Federal 38F-TD is actually +P+. It is Federal's version of the so-called "Treasury Load." It was used by agencies within the Treasury Department, which would include Secret Service, etc.

Winchester made and contracted this +P+ ammo originally, and it is still in their LE Line, catalog number RA38110HP+.

The FBI is within Department of Justice, and always used its "FBI Load," a 158 grain Lead Hollow Point +P.

EDIT: Sorry, the FBI did switch to a 147 grain 38 Special load as its last load for that caliber.

 

[Doug M.]

I think Shawn has it. IIRC, this was essentially a .357 load in a .38 case to avoid the political consequences of having magnum ammo. The bullet was too light for the velocity, resulting in sub-par penetration.

 

[RWJ]

Most of the FBI .38 Spl. 147 +P+ was produced by Federal, but I seem to recall one of their last batches was made by Winchester

 

[shouldazagged]

I've sometimes wondered if this was one reason that my dashless 640, one of a run of about 5000, I understand, is factory etched inside the cylinder opening "Tested for +P+". On the phone S&W didn't want to say anything except that the gun was manufactured/shipped in 1990 and that they don't condone using +P+ ammo in any of their guns.

I had, and have, no intention of shooting +P+, I just wanted to know how many were made in that batch. They lawyered up on me.

 

[chief38]

My Dad was a Federal Agent and so I have inherited a few boxed of this load as well as Some Winchester +P+. As he explained it to me years ago the +P+ was unknown to the public at that time and the Department could use is as opposed to the .357 Magnum which was more of a "dreaded political no no".

He personally never liked them and reverted back to the Standard FBI Load which was 158 grain LSWCHP +P. When my Dad was doing under cover & infiltration work he would always carry a "non typical" LEO gun as he did not want to be made as a Federali.

 

[badge]

The only thing I've been told in regards to this ammo other than it works well but is a shallow penetrator is to use it in K frames or larger weapons. 20 clams is a good snag.

 

[ironhead7544]

At the time, the +P+ velocity was 1180 fps with the 110 gr bullet. Penetration was reported to be 5 and 3/4 inches. They didnt want any rounds coming out I guess. Made a 357 Magnum into a 6 shot 9mm.

I still have some from my BP days. Will have to check the velocity next time I get my chrono out.

 

[Otreb]

Most of the FBI .38 Spl. 147 +P+ was produced by Federal, but I seem to recall one of their last batches was made by Winchester

I used to get the win +p+ 147 gr pretty frequently up to about 10yrs ago. It chrono'd a bit faster than what I've seen posted from the federal version. It would hit low to mid 900s in snubbies, 980fps in a 2.5" 242 and just under 1050fps in my 4" mod 15. Not bad for a heavy-ish jhp in .38sp.