44 Magnum IMR4227 flat primer 21.7 grains...?

[scooter123]

Scooter123, where'd you find the Kindle edition of the Hornady manual? Your post prompted me to look for it, since I have a Kindle, and I don't see a Kindle edition on Amazon's web site.

Shil, I used the Search function on my Kindle and did a search for "Hornady". On the list of options available was the Hornady Reloading Guide. I will also note that it has a warning that it may not display properly on the base Kindle but by zooming in on the page the text does become visible and readable. It's not the most convenient data to use but late on a Sunday it was a quick way do find out what I had done wrong. One of these days when I see the Hornady manual at a Cabela's or Bass Pro I plan on picking up a real paper edition but for now it's useable if a bit of a kludge.

 

[alwslate]

The cups for Rifle primers are made using thicker stock than those for Pistol primers so I believe a statement like this may be somewhat in error. So, a 45 ACP won't show the primers flattening with an over pressure load but a high pressure caliber such as the 44 Magnum certainly could show the primers flattening.

I once made the mistake of using data from the Speer 14th to load a 140 grain Hornady XTP in 357 Magnum using Accurate #9 and the result was flattened primers AND cases sticking in the cylinder. When I got home I downloaded the Hornady manual to my Kindle and discovered that the load I was using was .3 grains over the maximum for this particular bullet per Hornady. Point is, Handgun primers will show flattening when pressures get too high. Fortunately for me I didn't do any damage to my revolver but it was a lesson to not rely on just one source of data.

Yes and I'm well aware of this because I had problems from
using data from the old Speer #8 manual with 140 gr HPs
and 4756 in my strong S&W 28-2. But rather than assuming
I suggest you read the sections in your Speer manuals on
primers and pressure and look at the pics.

 

[Neumann]

In my experience magnum revolver loads always flatten primers, to the point of embossing them with machining marks of the recoil plate. Watch for signs of extrusion into the firing pin hole.

Primer appearance is not a reliable indication of pressure. There is a lot of variation between brands, and some calibers run at higher pressure. Compressed loads can spike pressure, and result in detonation if carried to extremes, even with black powder. Careful near upper limits! Some bullets seat deeper than others, and powder density, hence volume, can vary, even batch to batch and with humidity.

 

[shil]

Shil, I used the Search function on my Kindle and did a search for "Hornady". On the list of options available was the Hornady Reloading Guide. I will also note that it has a warning that it may not display properly on the base Kindle but by zooming in on the page the text does become visible and readable. It's not the most convenient data to use but late on a Sunday it was a quick way do find out what I had done wrong. One of these days when I see the Hornady manual at a Cabela's or Bass Pro I plan on picking up a real paper edition but for now it's useable if a bit of a kludge.

Thanks, Scooter. I'm going to check it out, just for curiosity's sake. My own Hornady manual is getting a bit dated (Seventh Edition). I think a new paper edition is in the near future for me as well.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The 5 and 20 GRAM weights for electronic scales to calibrate with ARE NOT check weights! Check weights are in the 1 to 5 grain area, and sometimes smaller. RCBS sells 2 different check weight sets, and together, they make a really good set. If you have a friend with a good chemistry scale, you can make your own! On my digital scale I make up a weight for a powder charge, then use this to zero the scale and then add powder to zero. I can re-zero the scale as often as I feel necessary.

BTW, the primer that you are complaining about, looks nothing like an over the top high pressure load. They look like either a black ring around primer or the primer and the case are only distinguishable by color. The head space on your 92 could be a few thousandths long and produce this or mild cratering. I wouldn't worry about it, but it is you gun. Ivan

 

[6string]

Hi,
Couple of thoughts:
-The Lyman data is probably for a cast lead bullet of No. 2 alloy. The change in bullet is a possible culprit.
- Those CCI magnum primers can be tough to seat, depending on brass. Maybe try WLP or Federals?
- Reading a primer is an iffy proposition for determining pressure. A more reliable method, at least for the non-laboratory based handloader, is to measure case expansion with a dial micrometer just ahead of the case head. Compare a fired case to a sized but unfired case. Shouldn't be more than .002-.003" expansion. You could also compare to a fired case from one of your other trusted loads.
Best regards,
Jim

 

[shocker]

A more reliable method, at least for the non-laboratory based handloader, is to measure case expansion with a dial micrometer just ahead of the case head. Compare a fired case to a sized but unfired case. Shouldn't be more than .002-.003" expansion. You could also compare to a fired case from one of your other trusted loads.
Best regards,
Jim

FWIW, Hornady did exactly that to set maximum in the old manuals, except they cut off at 0.0005". In other words, unmeasurable with a common micrometer. Also, they excluded compressed loads.
Setting maximum in that way, my 1975 edition says 23 gr is the maximum load with a 240 JHP bullet (case full? Seating depth .371") . Absent incorrect seating depth, overcrimping, or bullet setback I think there is a symptom but no disease in the OP.

 

[Neumann]

An ordinary micrometer is perfectly capable of measuring to half a thousandth. The divisions are wide enough you can interpolate tenths by eye. The addition of a vernier simply makes this interpolation more objective.

Whether the reading is accurate to a tenth is another matter. Technique is of paramount importance. Check your technique using a test ring or Jo blocks. A springy medium like a brass case is nearly impossible to measure at that accuracy with a micrometer, but the nearest thousandth is reasonable.

I have a Mitutoyo digital vernier caliper which reads to 0.0005". It's a lab grade instrument, but the actual accuracy in the field is probably closer to 0.002". If you want tenths, make room on your bench for an optical comparator.

 

[ironhead7544]

You will find that some guns just do not "like" some components. I have had start loads tie up the revolver. Not sure why this is, it is just an observation. Factory ammo can be the same. It is best to test until you are satisfied the load meets your requirements.

Some years ago, when hot loading the 45 Colt was just starting to be popular a gun writer made up some loads with heavy bullets. The cases just fell out of the cylinder and primers were rounded and looked perfect. He sent some out for pressure testing and they were around 65,000 CUP IIRC.

 

[BlueOvalBandit]

Primer appearance is not a reliable indication of pressure.

Lets not forget what actually happens in revolvers when they fire. Clearance from the recoil shield allows primer to back out slightly before the whole case recoils and essentially slams the primer back in. It's why when you use wax or rubber bullets you can lock up your revolver from primers backing out.

Other signs such as sticky extraction and cratering are more reliable in revolvers.

 

[buck460XVR]

You would be hard pressed to overload IMR4227 in .44 mag under a 240 gr bullet. Just ain't enough room in the case. A plated bullet is not a lead bullet or is it a jacketed. It falls in between and should be loaded as such. Lyman's start load for a jacketed 240 pill in .44 is 19.3. Something to think about.

 

[CWH44300]

FWIW
Not sure what's going on with that load but I've seen a ton of loosey goosey winchester 30-30's do that with both factory and starting loads made up in new brass. If you were careful not to set the shoulder back the primers looked totally different with the same starting load on the second go round.