not a happy camper.
- Thread starter brojudge
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Could be you're right, but threads are often useful to others. There's likely some folks reading this who will benefit by more closely inspecting the next gun they buy.
My hunch is that the OP is sincere and would have been well served if he had read a thread like this before he bought the gun.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
While I believe in the concept of "buyer beware" I don't think it applies in this case. The soup can is the most obvious example. If the can says chicken on it and it has beef inside, the seller cannot then claim that they had a sign saying no returns and you're just out of luck.
In the US we have a Federal Trade Commission. We also have "Truth In Advertising" laws. So, if you advertise a rifle, you can't then put a fish in a sealed box and tell the customer to eat it when they open the box at home. Any time something is misrepresented, you have the right to return it or claim some other compensation.
This is true even if the vendor/store states that they don't accept returns. The key here is misrepresentation. The packaging says 1:8 twist rifle. If the gun does not than have 1:8 twist, it was misrepresented and the buyer has the right to have it fixed, exchanged or refunded. In this case it even goes a little deeper because it fundamentally changes the way the product works.
What if it said Troy Folding Sights on the package but had BCM folding sights instead? The dealer could claim that they perform the same function and you'll have to live with it. However, with twist rate, no matter what people say about how it's OK, it does affect how the bullet flies. So, it is a fundamental difference and again is falsely advertised. This gives the consumer certain rights.
smokindog
Member
The difference being the buyer had the opportunity and the responsibility to inspect the contents. The actual product was properly labeled. To relate it to the soup example, it's not the can that is mis-labeled, it's the sign on the display.
We'll have to agree to disagree here...
We'll have to agree to disagree here...
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It seems to me the MAJOR item in the OP's favor is the S&W supplied sticker on the firearm.
It seems to me that most LGS's "all sales are final" policies (I would hope) are there simply as an out/escape clause for them. "I'd like to return this (dirty) firearm even though I bought it new and 'haven't fired it.'" gives the LGS an out if things look fishy. That doesn't mean they have to choose to abide by the policy for every single sale. If one does choose to abide by this policy in this situation I'd likely add them to my "Never Do Business With Again" list.
I think it's more than reasonable for a buyer to assume that a factory-supplied piece of documentation on the item itself accurately represents the item. If the window sticker on a new car says the car has halogen headlights I shouldn't have to inspect it beyond that to determine if that's true. And even if someone says I won't be able to tell the difference between regular and halogen headlights - it doesn't matter. The fact is I want halogen and that's what I wanted to buy. Whether others think that's a reasonable desire is completely irrelevant.
I've heard great things about S&W customer service. I certainly hope they'd take care of it.
OR
It seems to me that most LGS's "all sales are final" policies (I would hope) are there simply as an out/escape clause for them. "I'd like to return this (dirty) firearm even though I bought it new and 'haven't fired it.'" gives the LGS an out if things look fishy. That doesn't mean they have to choose to abide by the policy for every single sale. If one does choose to abide by this policy in this situation I'd likely add them to my "Never Do Business With Again" list.
I think it's more than reasonable for a buyer to assume that a factory-supplied piece of documentation on the item itself accurately represents the item. If the window sticker on a new car says the car has halogen headlights I shouldn't have to inspect it beyond that to determine if that's true. And even if someone says I won't be able to tell the difference between regular and halogen headlights - it doesn't matter. The fact is I want halogen and that's what I wanted to buy. Whether others think that's a reasonable desire is completely irrelevant.
I've heard great things about S&W customer service. I certainly hope they'd take care of it.
OR
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Rastoff
US Veteran
Yes, in the case of the soup, the contents cannot be examined. However, to what level should the buyer accomplish this inspection?
Like I said previously, most rifles don't have the twist rate stamped on the barrel. So, in my opinion, it's not reasonable to expect that a person, new to the AR style gun, would even know to look at the barrel.
How 'bout this scenario:
You go to buy a 16" barreled AR. When you get home you pull out the tape measure and find it's an 18" barrel. Is that cause to return it?
I see the op is still mia. Rastoff, I agree with most of what you are saying, however the op said he bought a 1/8 barrel not a 1/9. Again whether it was a gift or he bought it I'm still not clear on. However based on what he stated knew the difference which tells me he's not new to AR's. I could be wrong. And I also think there is something bogus with this post to begin with. "whats the word on the street?". What does that mean?
smokindog
Member
PRESUMING I can inspect the product, .....
Depends if the barrel was stamped 18"! Also depends if the standard product had been modified to 18" as the standard spec.
We can make up all kinds of hypotheticals but I'd prefer to stay with the facts as presented for this discussion.
Depends if the barrel was stamped 18"! Also depends if the standard product had been modified to 18" as the standard spec.
We can make up all kinds of hypotheticals but I'd prefer to stay with the facts as presented for this discussion.
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Rastoff
US Veteran
No, in fact he posted a reply just 17 minutes before you did. He said it's his first gun. So, he may have researched it, but that doesn't mean he knew the barrel was stamped until he got it home.
Yes, your right. I want to stay with the presented facts as well. The labeling on the gun was 1:8 twist which is what he wanted. It was labeled wrong and he didn't notice until he got it home. I think a refund or exchange is in order. If I owned a shop and a customer came to me with this exact issue, I'd either replace it, send it to S&W for repair or refund his money. I don't see it as unreasonable.
If he came in and simply said he didn't like it, tough.
EDIT: If the customer has fired the gun, all bets are off.
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I imagine I'd notice that in the LGS . . . Different scenario
schgsd
Member
OK is there a way to match up S&W serial number to manufacture date and more importantly shipped configuration?
We got no idea where the OP purchased his "gift". Lotta unscrupulous people out there in the world and that 1:8 melonite barrel configuration seems about the most highly sought after thing in the M&P 15 world.
We got no idea where the OP purchased his "gift". Lotta unscrupulous people out there in the world and that 1:8 melonite barrel configuration seems about the most highly sought after thing in the M&P 15 world.
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My most humble apologies. I stand corrected. Glad to see he re-engaged here.
Factory letter from Roy would straighten that out . . .
schgsd
Member
Or when he talks to S&W and they say what are you talking about, we shipped that thing with a 1:8.......
red dragon
Member
All of my m&p rifles came dirty (test fired)from the factory. How exactly would you determine if it's been fired,more? Once it goes out the door, its a used gun. The ops level of firearms knowledge has nothing to do with a business transaction. He paid for the current sport 1/9 model, what entitles him to a product that costs more? His lack of barrel stamping knowledge? A sticker? He got what he paid for, plan and simple. It sucks its not exactly what he wanted and hopefully it gets worked out but sometimes lessons are learned the hard way. Maybe this thread will help teach others the importance of carefully inspecting all firearms before walking out the door.
He was supposed to get what he thought he paid for. In fact the box even mislead him into believing he'd be getting something else.
Am I to believe that you would walk it off after getting 15 inch wheels after you thought you had gotten 16 inch wheels on the purchase of a new car? But maybe you didn't bring a ruler to inspect your purchase?
He did pay for what he got, as the alternate would be stealing. He however did not get what he thought he paid for and it was actually his barrel stamping knowledge which lead him to understand that he did not indeed get what he thought he paid for. How much burden are we putting on the buyer? The burden is on the factory to provide what they say their selling, to not do so intentionally is fraud, to do so unintentionally is poor QC. But mistakes are made and people should inspect their items, I just don't think it's feasible to break down every little thing and check every little thing like you are suggesting.
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schgsd
Member
@ Red Dragon, go to OP's post #1 view attached pic number 3
red dragon
Member
The ops first post has three separate pics of general information. I don't see a pic of a mislabeled box or rifle barrel. That pic could be from a rifle 2 years ago, proves nothing. If he's new to firearms then how does he know or care about the 1/8 5r barrel? Research, but then he'd know it comes with a 1/9. Checking the twist rate on a rifle he's buying just because of the twist rate seems to much to ask of the buyer?
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The pics may not state it but he wrote that it was, it seems like you think he is intentionally trying to deceive us. It could be true, but I was taking his story at face value.
Maybe he wasn't buying it solely based on twist rate, it was just a nice to have perk. Just because I was told and read that my Toyota Tacoma comes with 16" tires only to find that I got 15" would have me running back to the dealership. Also, he probably did research, but you know it's not like he knew to look for mislabeling. Also sometimes Internet will say something and box will say another, sometimes the box is correct. You seem to act like he knew this was coming and should've done everything to prevent what he didn't know was coming. Kind of a difficult task. Prepare for the punch that may or may not come in the next 5 min or 10 years.
I do see your point though. It would be prudent to make sure you have most everything before walking out the door, but the seller is manufacturer on the other hand have an obligation to advertise and label accurately. I would say that after he gets a replacement barrel from s&w if the box was mislabeled, that he use this as a headache and lesson learned. I wouldn't tell him to walk away from this though empty handed
Maybe he wasn't buying it solely based on twist rate, it was just a nice to have perk. Just because I was told and read that my Toyota Tacoma comes with 16" tires only to find that I got 15" would have me running back to the dealership. Also, he probably did research, but you know it's not like he knew to look for mislabeling. Also sometimes Internet will say something and box will say another, sometimes the box is correct. You seem to act like he knew this was coming and should've done everything to prevent what he didn't know was coming. Kind of a difficult task. Prepare for the punch that may or may not come in the next 5 min or 10 years.
I do see your point though. It would be prudent to make sure you have most everything before walking out the door, but the seller is manufacturer on the other hand have an obligation to advertise and label accurately. I would say that after he gets a replacement barrel from s&w if the box was mislabeled, that he use this as a headache and lesson learned. I wouldn't tell him to walk away from this though empty handed
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