Horror Story: M&P 10 and S&W Customer Service

[copemech]

What do you think I did wrong with my gunsmithing?

You took BIG steps not really knowing , but guessing.

These guns have issues! Seems most are undergassed and may not work reliably with anything but US made brass full pressure hunting loads. In other words, may not work reliably with NATO, russian or other stuff.

They do make drills in other than fractional sizes you know! If I understand, you took your gas port to about .078, probably a jump of .010, now fact is you are probly just fine on that if a bit on the big side. Reckless approach, yet effective.

My current recco for all is .075 based upon my own experience and consultation with an expert I shall not name on here. All I will say is mine did work fine when taken from .068 to .073, but not sure how much insurance is built into that.

Others may take from that what they wish.

 

[copemech]

Nobody believes you or cares. The amount of time and energy you have devoted to bashing this gun and S&W is ridiculous. At this point you've lost all credibility. All this "I just want to let people know" is bs. Most people buying the rifle already know its proprietary like most ar10 style of rifles. You sound more like a jeleous freedom group rep than a distraught customer.

And as you say that, I will tell you mine has yet to shoot straight and they have yet to fix it. You can read my other posts.

Last event, they sent it back to me with a 2.5 in group at 50 picture stating "in spec". That is 5MOA and I have never achieved that, reguardless of ammo. Most seem to run 6-8 at 100. And I cannot even BUY a barrel!

Total bull****!

 

[Woodwind]

I didn't know Ford sold parts directly

Can you buy a new motor, heads, etc. for a two year old vehicle?

Yes, according to federal law, automakers are required to maintain an adequate inventory of parts for any vehicle currently in production, and for a period of 10 years after production of that vehicle ceases. Most manufacturers do better than that.

Ford offers complete "crate" motors for their vehicles. They also sell engine parts individually or in one of several "overhaul" packages. Just go to the parts counter of any Ford dealer. They will be glad to accept your money.

While not all consumer goods manufacturers are required by law to furnish necessary repair parts for 10 years after end of production like the automakers must, the reputable ones do. I would hope that a company with the history and reputation of Smith & Wesson would do so. This thread seems to state this isn't the case. I haven't contacted S&W personally about a M&P10 barrel, and I'm not sure how much I should believe of what's been posted on the internet, so I remain skeptical that they won't act as a reputable manufacturer should.

All that said, let me add that this shouldn't be viewed as an issue of proprietary design. Remington's Mod 700 is a proprietary design. Fords and Chevies are proprietary designs. That hasn't stopped third parties from producing parts. You can buy barrels, or trigger assemblies, or stocks, or sights, etc etc etc for a Mod 700 from dozens of manufacturers. That's because it is a popular rifle with a large following.

Any competent barrelmaker should be able to produce a suitable barrel for the M&P10. Any competent gunsmith should be able to fit it. Because this firearm doesn't have a large market penetration, you might have to have the barrel assembly custom made, but that's just a matter of money.

 

[Woodwind]

And as you say that, I will tell you mine has yet to shoot straight and they have yet to fix it. You can read my other posts.

Last event, they sent it back to me with a 2.5 in group at 50 picture stating "in spec". That is 5MOA and I have never achieved that, reguardless of ammo. Most seem to run 6-8 at 100. And I cannot even BUY a barrel!

Total bull****!

Sorry to hear yours doesn't shoot well. Mine certainly shoots much better than that. It consistently delivers better than 1 MOA with good ammo, many groups are .6 MOA or better. It prefers heavier bullets and stout loads. I'm using 168 gr HPBT with 42.5 gr IMR 4064 and Federal match primers. I weigh every charge and spin every bullet and completed round to assure concentricity and uniformity, same as you would for any high precision load. I also use RCBS small base dies to ensure proper function through an autoloader.

If you are doing all that and your groups are still blowing out larger than 1 MOA, you do have a lemon. When you have lemons, make lemonade. It is time to get a good smith to blueprint the gun. We know for a fact that these guns can shoot a lot better than yours. Bringing everything exactly to design spec should make your gun shoot good too.

 

[sgtsandman]

Sorry to hear yours doesn't shoot well. Mine certainly shoots much better than that. It consistently delivers better than 1 MOA with good ammo, many groups are .6 MOA or better. It prefers heavier bullets and stout loads. I'm using 168 gr HPBT with 42.5 gr IMR 4064 and Federal match primers. I weigh every charge and spin every bullet and completed round to assure concentricity and uniformity, same as you would for any high precision load. I also use RCBS small base dies to ensure proper function through an autoloader.

If you are doing all that and your groups are still blowing out larger than 1 MOA, you do have a lemon. When you have lemons, make lemonade. It is time to get a good smith to blueprint the gun. We know for a fact that these guns can shoot a lot better than yours. Bringing everything exactly to design spec should make your gun shoot good too.

He has certainly given his M&P10 a good go at trying to make it shoot like it should with little success. He had a thread about it a while back trying this and trying that. I don't remember him going the blueprint route.

 

[ShellShock]

Just brought my new 18" out of the field today and with junk 147gr shooting 1" or less groups, dead on the money, right in the bulls-eye.

SS

 

[Woodwind]

He has certainly given his M&P10 a good go at trying to make it shoot like it should with little success. He had a thread about it a while back trying this and trying that. I don't remember him going the blueprint route.

Guns are precision machines. Blueprinting brings all of the tolerances right down to design minimum. This makes the gun run the best it can operate. I blueprint any gun I own that doesn't shoot right as it comes out of the box. Usually, I'll blueprint it even if it does. Every gun shoots best when all of the manufacturing slop is removed by a careful blueprinting job.

I'd also suggest doing a chamber cast and slugging the barrel. If the barrel isn't right, the gun isn't going to shoot right with standard ammo, but you can often still make it shoot right with a proper handload if you know what it actually needs instead of what it nominally needs I've made guns with oversized bores shoot right by swagging oversize bullets for them.
Checking that the breech and bolt face are square is also a must. Those are critical factors for a tight grouping gun.

 

[copemech]

Sorry to hear yours doesn't shoot well. Mine certainly shoots much better than that. It consistently delivers better than 1 MOA with good ammo, many groups are .6 MOA or better. It prefers heavier bullets and stout loads. I'm using 168 gr HPBT with 42.5 gr IMR 4064 and Federal match primers. I weigh every charge and spin every bullet and completed round to assure concentricity and uniformity, same as you would for any high precision load. I also use RCBS small base dies to ensure proper function through an autoloader.

If you are doing all that and your groups are still blowing out larger than 1 MOA, you do have a lemon. When you have lemons, make lemonade. It is time to get a good smith to blueprint the gun. We know for a fact that these guns can shoot a lot better than yours. Bringing everything exactly to design spec should make your gun shoot good too.

Late tonight when I seen this post, but I will get back later.

 

[MichiganScott]

Sorry to hear yours doesn't shoot well. Mine certainly shoots much better than that. It consistently delivers better than 1 MOA with good ammo, many groups are .6 MOA or better. It prefers heavier bullets and stout loads. I'm using 168 gr HPBT with 42.5 gr IMR 4064 and Federal match primers. I weigh every charge and spin every bullet and completed round to assure concentricity and uniformity, same as you would for any high precision load. I also use RCBS small base dies to ensure proper function through an autoloader.

If you are doing all that and your groups are still blowing out larger than 1 MOA, you do have a lemon. When you have lemons, make lemonade. It is time to get a good smith to blueprint the gun. We know for a fact that these guns can shoot a lot better than yours. Bringing everything exactly to design spec should make your gun shoot good too.

If I had a rifle that shot as bad as copemech's, I would not waste time and money "blueprinting" it if the manufacturer could not fix it. I'd either sell it or bury it in the back of the safe to be used as a loaner for newbies. I believe copemech has used up most of his available options trying to get it to shoot.

 

[ShellShock]

No kidding.

Turn it into a man cave lamp or something......

SS

If I had a rifle that shot as bad as copemech's, I would not waste time and money "blueprinting" it if the manufacturer could not fix it. I'd either sell it or bury it in the back of the safe to be used as a loaner for newbies. I believe copemech has used up most of his available options trying to get it to shoot.

 

[Skdvr1]

What do you think I did wrong with my gunsmithing?

Ya know, I don't know a thing about the M&P 10. I don't expect to ever want one. I appreciate the .308 cartridge and the AR platform so I ended up here trying to learn something. Instead, I get to read this interesting thread. I would offer an unbiased observation that S&W missed an opportunity to impress a lot of customers and potential customers. The M&P 10 is irrelevant in that regard. I have been a fan of S&W products for years. I have never had the need to try to speak with their service folks which is testimony to their quality, as far as I can see. My medium sized department has been issuing S&W semi autos and not a single hick up. Anyway, customer service is a separate animal from quality. It sounds to me like Smith could have won friends and loyal customers if they had taken ownership of the Hensch's problem, regardless of fault. I have a Dillon XL650 press because they are famous for their customer service. Never had a problem with their products either, but have heard from friends who dealt favorably with them after my friends made dumb errors and broke things. Anyway, I return you to your regular program now....great forum.

 

[ShellShock]

Agreed. This will come back to bite them in the pocketbook.


SS

Ya know, I don't know a thing about the M&P 10. I don't expect to ever want one. I appreciate the .308 cartridge and the AR platform so I ended up here trying to learn something. Instead, I get to read this interesting thread. I would offer an unbiased observation that S&W missed an opportunity to impress a lot of customers and potential customers. The M&P 10 is irrelevant in that regard. I have been a fan of S&W products for years. I have never had the need to try to speak with their service folks which is testimony to their quality, as far as I can see. My medium sized department has been issuing S&W semi autos and not a single hick up. Anyway, customer service is a separate animal from quality. It sounds to me like Smith could have won friends and loyal customers if they had taken ownership of the Hensch's problem, regardless of fault. I have a Dillon XL650 press because they are famous for their customer service. Never had a problem with their products either, but have heard from friends who dealt favorably with them after my friends made dumb errors and broke things. Anyway, I return you to your regular program now....great forum.

 

[copemech]

Sorry to hear yours doesn't shoot well. Mine certainly shoots much better than that. It consistently delivers better than 1 MOA with good ammo, many groups are .6 MOA or better. It prefers heavier bullets and stout loads. I'm using 168 gr HPBT with 42.5 gr IMR 4064 and Federal match primers. I weigh every charge and spin every bullet and completed round to assure concentricity and uniformity, same as you would for any high precision load. I also use RCBS small base dies to ensure proper function through an autoloader.

If you are doing all that and your groups are still blowing out larger than 1 MOA, you do have a lemon. When you have lemons, make lemonade. It is time to get a good smith to blueprint the gun. We know for a fact that these guns can shoot a lot better than yours. Bringing everything exactly to design spec should make your gun shoot good too.

Ok, I am back for a bit. I went to the range today with pistols and my cheap DPMS .223 running a cheap Vortex 2x7 scope. Purpose to set adjustable gas block on this overgassed thing.
I had problems at 50 with the cheap scope as compared to the 14x on the big 10. Out of first ten rounds somewhere in the middle I could not tell where it was hitting, turned out to be because about 4 went through the same hole! Cheap gun!

Back to the 10, I am a mechanic, not a gunsmith, and frankly I am not blueprinting squat. I do not have the prints or the equipment to do it. If you do, then you are a smart fellow.

I still this thing a modular service rifle and do not expect perfection. I think my level of expectation is around 3 MOA with run of the mill ammo or M80 ball, down to 1.5 or so with good ammo. I am still at 6-8. Not even going handload tuning until something is in the zone.

All point being, I ran into another 10 owner that had some issues with his. He seemed a knowledgable fellow. Brought up the fact the mellonite barrel is hard and rough. Needs a lot of break in to smooth out, possibly 500- 1000 rds. Stated an engineer at S&W suggested he use a steel bore brush of the Hoppe's tornado type to accelerate the process and smooth it out. He suggested 60 or so passes to burnish it in. Said his tightened up noticeably, although he was starting from 3-4 MOA range.

Anyone got thoughts on this? I figure I have nothing to loose.

Other note for Woodwind. Would you consider selling me 10 rds or so of your handloads to try?

I will throw in the fact that the two others I had shoot mine and hand it back were military marksmen, one Army, one Marine, and both shoot better than me any day, usually. Darned young eyes!

 

[MichiganScott]

All point being, I ran into another 10 owner that had some issues with his. He seemed a knowledgable fellow. Brought up the fact the mellonite barrel is hard and rough. Needs a lot of break in to smooth out, possibly 500- 1000 rds. Stated an engineer at S&W suggested he use a steel bore brush of the Hoppe's tornado type to accelerate the process and smooth it out. He suggested 60 or so passes to burnish it in. Said his tightened up noticeably, although he was starting from 3-4 MOA range.

One of the quickest ways I know of to damage a barrel is to run a steel brush down the bore. I simply can't imagine a S&W engineer telling someone to do so. If you want to smooth out a barrel with a Melonite treatment, use lapping compound and pay someone to do it if you do not have the skills to do it yourself.

 

[ShellShock]

Mine shot just fine out of the box.

I am thinking a few visits to the range will break it in just fine.

SS

One of the quickest ways I know of to damage a barrel is to run a steel brush down the bore. I simply can't imagine a S&W engineer telling someone to do so. If you want to smooth out a barrel with a Melonite treatment, use lapping compound and pay someone to do it if you do not have the skills to do it yourself.

 

[bergermeister]

YOU SAID A MOUTHFULL

Ya know, I don't know a thing about the M&P 10. I don't expect to ever want one. I appreciate the .308 cartridge and the AR platform so I ended up here trying to learn something. Instead, I get to read this interesting thread. I would offer an unbiased observation that S&W missed an opportunity to impress a lot of customers and potential customers. The M&P 10 is irrelevant in that regard. I have been a fan of S&W products for years. I have never had the need to try to speak with their service folks which is testimony to their quality, as far as I can see. My medium sized department has been issuing S&W semi autos and not a single hick up. Anyway, customer service is a separate animal from quality. It sounds to me like Smith could have won friends and loyal customers if they had taken ownership of the Hensch's problem, regardless of fault. I have a Dillon XL650 press because they are famous for their customer service. Never had a problem with their products either, but have heard from friends who dealt favorably with them after my friends made dumb errors and broke things. Anyway, I return you to your regular program now....great forum.

I believe that 'nails' it, could not have said it better!

 

[Woodwind]

Other note for Woodwind. Would you consider selling me 10 rds or so of your handloads to try?

I tune my handloads for a particular rifle (mine). While they work very well in my rifle, I couldn't expect them to work very well in anyone else's rifle. While they are safe to fire in my rifle, with pressure well within SAAMI limits, I can't know for sure if they would be safe in yours. If you have a tight bore or a long chamber, they could be dangerous. From the results you report, though, I wouldn't be surprised if they might rattle around in your bore.

Do a chamber cast and slug your bore. Find out if you have a barrel with standard dimensions. If it is rough, have it lapped by someone who knows how. Don't just abuse it with a steel brush. If it is oversize, then swage some bullets to the correct diameter. I have one barrel that needs .311 slugs to properly engage the rifling.

Measure to find out if it needs work, and what work it needs, then properly do that work. You wouldn't just toss a handful of gravel in an engine's intake, would you? Same thing applies here. Determine the problem, then properly fix it.

 

[yqtszhj]

Also, for those who are curious, pics of the rifle are posted on another forum here: https://www.okshooters.com/showthre...mp-W-s-Customer-Service&p=2699025#post2699025

That barrel split due to an obstruction. All it takes is a bit of water in the bore to cause that.

I can also see why s&w would not repair if for liability reasons or sell the parts. My garage door company would not sell me a high tension door spring to install myself for liability reasons when mine broke.

At first i wondered why they would not repair it but now i see why. Selling the OP a new one for $1100 in this situation may not make one happy but in my opinion sounds fair. Just my opinion...

 

[bergermeister]

MOVE ON

That barrel split due to an obstruction. All it takes is a bit of water in the bore to cause that.

I can also see why s&w would not repair if for liability reasons or sell the parts. My garage door company would not sell me a high tension door spring to install myself for liability reasons when mine broke.

At first i wondered why they would not repair it but now i see why. Selling the OP a new one for $1100 in this situation may not make one happy but in my opinion sounds fair. Just my opinion...

Inasmuch as this is a Smith & Wesson forum it is OBVIOUS that they are aware of the complaints from their customers and DO NOT GIVE A RIP... So live with it. Either keep your MP-10 and be happy with it, or sell it and take your business elsewhere. Why keep beating a dead horse?

 

[copemech]

One of the quickest ways I know of to damage a barrel is to run a steel brush down the bore. I simply can't imagine a S&W engineer telling someone to do so. If you want to smooth out a barrel with a Melonite treatment, use lapping compound and pay someone to do it if you do not have the skills to do it yourself.

You gotta look at the design of the Hoppe's Tornado. It is not a brush per se. States it is designed to clean fouling, but I can see where it may have a smoothing/ polishing effect.

I have about 5 different types of ammo to try next from the SW recco to match grade. My preferred range has been closed a lot due to weather and I have been on pistol projects so the 10 has been sitting. Going to try some before and after attempts if possible and nothing else works out.

I am not going to retro engineer the thing, it is just not worth it for a modular disposable gun. I am not gonna flog a dead horse, but I will gife a horse a little massage and love. Possibly I have not found the right combo, but at this cost I coulda already got two straight shooting bolt guns or a sweet M1A.