Bad Ammo

[Pointblank2U]

I finally found a name brand ammunition that chokes my beloved Walther PPS. It's the relatively new Winchester 147 grain Train & Defend line. For the first time ever I was getting failures to extract from my PPS. The box for both the Train FMJ and the Defend JHP says 'low recoil". I guess there is no free lunch because I believe the ammunition is underpowered. I immediately followed up by shooting it in a reliable S&W 9mm Shield and got similar results. I just thought I'd let everyone know.

 

[Old cop]

Thanks for the heads-up. I purchased a box of their Train & Defend flat nose FMJ .380 but (luckily) it ran fine in my M&P

 

[RV4driver]

Why would they think it is a good idea to "defend" with under powered ammo?
I'm curious now, as I also have a comfortably reliable PPS. Maybe I'll pick up a box and try it in my 3913 and 3914 also, as they have yet to choke on any ammo I've put in them. If I finds some, I'll post the results.

 

[Waywatcher]

9mm Winchester Train (& Defend) is full power 147 grain standard pressure ammo. Low recoil is subjective--it has less recoil than a 124+P. The profile of the bullet is designed to replicate their Defend JHP bullet--meaning your PPS will almost certainly choke on Winchester Defend as well.

I have used Winchester Train in my Sig P226 9mm without incident but I prefer standard pressure 124 grain for POI and felt recoil.

 

[MichiganScott]

This illustrates why you should always run a few boxes of any ammunition you want to stake your life on through your pistol. Even normally reliable handguns may choke.

 

[Pointblank2U]

The PPS and Shield being short-barreled pistols may be the reason they choked and the 226 didn't.

 

[RV4driver]

I don't see what the length of the barrel has to do with choking on ammo. Back pressure over time? I can see a stovepipe related to slide travel, I guess. But if the extractor makes it over the rim, it should extract.

 

[colt_saa]

The 9MM 147 grain Train and Defend offering from Winchester are absolutely not loaded to be under powered

The factory spec is 950 FPS. That is in the +/- ballpark of all other SAAMI spec 9MM 147s out there.

Not all ammunition functions properly in all semi-auto firearms. As stated it is always very important to test your carry load, before you trust it.

 

[chief38]

The way all ammo Company's are cranking out ammo these days (faster and more than ever) it is essential that any ammo that is carried to defend your life with is tested and trusted.

Winchester ammo used to be incredibly reliable - not so anymore. Remington is no better and for the first time I am now experiencing problems with Federal - a first for me anyway.

The only ammo name brands that still retain their 100% rating (in my own book of course) is CCI/ Speer & Buffalo Bore. YMMV

 

[Pointblank2U]

The thing I didn't mention is that I shot of lot of it in both guns. I was planning on using it for carry ammo and put about a hundred rounds of Train in each then tried Defend. Both caused stoppages in both pistols. The Walther has never choked on anything before this. I am going to stick with my usual Federal HST. I will probably never by any Winchester ammo again.

 

[Waywatcher]

I will probably never by any Winchester ammo again.

Whoa! That's a tad extreme and irrational. One type of Winchester ammo didn't work in your two subcompact guns and you're writing off the whole brand?

I generally buy Federal ammo as my default, but your statement seems a bit severe.

 

[one eye joe]

I finally found a name brand ammunition that chokes my beloved Walther PPS. It's the relatively new Winchester 147 grain Train & Defend line. For the first time ever I was getting failures to extract from my PPS. The box for both the Train FMJ and the Defend JHP says 'low recoil". I guess there is no free lunch because I believe the ammunition is underpowered. I immediately followed up by shooting it in a reliable S&W 9mm Shield and got similar results. I just thought I'd let everyone know.

AS IN MOST THINGS, THERE IS ALWAYS A TRADE OFF WHEN YOU UPSET THE BALSANCE TO EMPHASIZE ONE PARTICULAR CHARACTERISTIC. THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP…….

 

[Arik]

Whoa! That's a tad extreme and irrational. One type of Winchester ammo didn't work in your two subcompact guns and you're writing off the whole brand?

I generally buy Federal ammo as my default, but your statement seems a bit severe.

Agreed. Put that ammo in a full size gun and see what happens.

 

[tbgunner88]

I've read that the ammo in question was targeted at female shooters. It kind of makes you wonder with the huge W on the box and the less recoil advertisement. Maybe the W is really for winchester and today's men are just getting soft, either way, there are too many tried and true loads out there to chance our lives on something new and possibly unreliable.

 

[moxie]

Have you contacted Winchester customer service?

 

[Pointblank2U]

Whoa! That's a tad extreme and irrational. One type of Winchester ammo didn't work in your two subcompact guns and you're writing off the whole brand?

I generally buy Federal ammo as my default, but your statement seems a bit severe.

Severe? Are you a stock holder or something? It's my money, I can do what I wish with it and I don't appreciate the personal insults.

 

[MyDads38]

I've shot the T & D ammo through my SD9VE and M&P 9 FS and it is both accurate and reliable. I now carry the 147 gr. JHP as my defense round. It's NOT a powder puff load. Reduced recoil? Maybe compared to +P ammo.

Sorry that you didn't have similar results. I've only had one issue with one round of factory ammo and that was in 9mm from REM-UMC Mega Pak; but that doesn't keep me from buying Remington products. If it was some of your reloaded rounds, would you stop reloading? It happens from time to time, whether factory or reloads. Look at the millions of rounds that are produced annually; I bet if you contacted Winchester, they would make it right for you.

 

[Pointblank2U]

I'm just goin to burn it up in some of my Glocks.

 

[jimbo728]

Badge, I can see your point. If you dont trust it, dont use it. Sure hope you settle on a good load for your Walther.
One mans meat is another mans poison.
Jim

 

[chief38]

ANY AMMO COMPANY can have a bad lot, a bad run or a bad day. It's when it becomes commonplace and systemic that you change suppliers.

30 years ago I had trouble with Remington Rimfire ammo (nothing has changed much there) but still used their centerfire ammo for self defense. One evening at the Range I had two failures to fire within the same box of +P .38 Specials and that was it for me with Remington. I immediately switched over to Winchester and that stayed very reliable for years. Then about 10 years ago their Self Defense ammo was so far off their stated velocities (15% off) I sent them back 6 boxes of (FBI LOADS) ammo with a nasty note. They refunded my money. I also started having problems with their 12 gauge Shot Shells and .22 rimfire ammo.

For self defense I now use either Buffalo Bore or Speer and for .22 rimfire I like CCI (when I can find it) or Federal. Federal rimfire has just recently started to slide also, but so far it's been isolated to only one brick of .22's, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt for now. I will put a call into their customer service department though to make sure they are aware.

I guess as production numbers go up the quality goes down. I also think the ammo Co's hate shutting down a production line for maintenance and repair until they have no choice. That is very wrong when it comes to ammo, but I think they are all basking in the new ammo buying frenzy.