New RL550B Loose Bullets! Help.

[15Krounds]

I have been pulling my hair out loading rounds and having the bullets end up loose at the end. See video...

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWHy5IJn6q4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWHy5IJn6q4[/ame]

Details:

I'm using once fired Wolf Gold brass, Hornady bulk spire point 55 grain bullets, TAC powder. Dillon steel .223 dies.

Order of operations is as follows:
-Deprime on Lee single stage
-Swage primer pockets
-Wet tumble SS pins
-Lube with sizing wax and resize on the Dillon (also a touch of wax on the expander ball)
-Tumble again to remove lube.
-Trim cases, champfer, de-burr
-Prime on the Dillon and load em'

Any ideas on what I can do better? I want to get my ladder loads loaded and get out to the range. Then I can go and start crankin' the loads out.

Thanks for any suggestions. I should note that some seem to come out fine. I got 25 similar loads done with z-max bullets and they seemed to be okay. I didn't exactly reef on them though to see how tight they are.

15K

 

[novalty]

If your bullets are loose, then you don't have your crimp or seat/crimp die set up correctly.

 

[15Krounds]

Seat die was set up as to get the overall length I was looking for. I cranked the crimp die down until I could see a mark on the neck of the case.

 

[novalty]

Do your Hornady bullets have a cannelure?

 

[15Krounds]

Yep, cannelure bullets. Thanks for your response.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

Check the size of your expander ball.

Wrong bullet or defective die?
Wrong exp. ball?

The Size die and exp. ball controls neck tension fit, not the seat/crimp die.

Are you bumping the shoulder back a little?

 

[scooter123]

Your video is labeled as Private so nobody can view it without your permission.

I would suggest that you change to seating and crimping in separate operations. It will make adjusting your crimp for a specific bullet much much easier. I will also suggest the Lee Factory Crimp Die. It's a collet style crimp similar to most factory loaded ammunitions and has a somewhat wide range of adjustments allowing you to tailor your crimp to a specific bullet. BTW, it will crimp bullets without any cannelure without causing any harm to the bullet or accuracy produced.

Note, I base that statement on my personal experience loading 68 grain Hornady BTHP bullets to sub 1/2 MOA accuracy in my rifle. I will also state that the Lee Rifle Factory Crimp Dies do not have any sizing ring and all they do is crimp the case. So you Lee haters should actually look at this die before making assumptions about what it does or how it functions.

That said, 98% of your bullet tightness in the case is determined by Neck Tension. I've loaded for my AR without any crimp at all without any issues with setback. The reason I crimp my ammunition is that I've found I get less powder residue on the BCG and better accuracy with crimped ammunition. As for why, I believe that it's because the rifle powders I load with need a quicker rise in case pressure during the inititial phase of powder ignition to get a good burn started. Point is, you need to look at the Neck Size of your cases if you have any stocked up ready to be loaded. I have a suspicion that you will find that you may have skipped the sizing operation on your cases and that is causing your loose bullets.

With as many operations as you now have in preparing your cases it's not to hard to conceive of missing a step. Notes.

You are depriming and pocket swaging then cleaning. You should only need to pocket swage your case ONCE and that is only required for crimped case (military brass). In addiiton, depending on how "clean" your loads shoot you may not need to clean after this stage. Yeah, I've seen and prepped Lake City cases and that cleaning is needed because off the military ranges Lake City brass is just FILTHY. However, ammo I've shot in my rifle has cases clean enough I don't do any cleaning before they are sized. I also wait until after the length trim and chamfering operations before cleaning my cases because I just don't like the idea of cases with brass shavings inside them being fired in my rifle.

With the exception of Lake City cases off the range my process for rifle cases is as follows.

1) Size and deprime using RCBS Case Lube II. Note, a very thin film is all that is needed, too much and you get shoulder buckles.
2) Check for length and trim any case longer than 1.248 inch. My trim too length for 223 is 1.246 and I'm shooting a rifle with a Match chamber so I don't see much case length growth at each firing cycle.
3) Chamfer ID and OD for any cases that were trimmed.
4) Clean the cases with stainless pins.

For Lake City brass off the military ranges it's as follows.

1) Clean with primers in place for 1 hour only using SS pins. Then bake in an oven at 140 degrees for 35-45 minutes do get them good and dry.
2) Size and deprime using RCBS Case Lube II. Note, a very thin film is all that is needed, too much and you get shoulder buckles.
3) Pocket Swage
4) Trim them all, because I've found they really need it.
5) Chamfer OD and ID
6) Ream flash holes to 0.083 inch using a decimal sized ream. Because I've learned the hard way that if I don't do this about 1 in 100 cases will get 2 pins wedged into the flash hole.
7) Full clean with SS pins.

 

[Engineer1911]

You have a die problem, not a press problem. Check the OD of your expander ball located on the decapping stem in your sizer die.

 

[fredj338]

All good advice. Try no crimp. It is possible to slightly over crimp & lose neck tension. I would also try diff brass cases. I am not sure the wolf are up to reloading, I hav no exp with them, but wolf in gen is suspect quality IMO. I also prefer no lube of any kind inside the case neck. Something else to try, remove the expander completely & try sizing & seating that way.

 

[rsrocket1]

The problem with the Lee rifle dies is that the die sizes the neck down too far and relies on the expander to bring it back "up to spec", but I agree that if you are having neck tension problems, try F/L resizing one case without the rod in the die and see if you can seat a bullet. If you have a boat tail bullet, you shouldn't have a problem starting it in the neck. If you have a flat base bullet, you may need to flare the neck a bit to get the bullet started.

 

[fredj338]

The problem with the Lee rifle dies is that the die sizes the neck down too far and relies on the expander to bring it back "up to spec", but I agree that if you are having neck tension problems, try F/L resizing one case without the rod in the die and see if you can seat a bullet. If you have a boat tail bullet, you shouldn't have a problem starting it in the neck. If you have a flat base bullet, you may need to flare the neck a bit to get the bullet started.

Nope, never flared a rifle case for jacketed bullets. Just make sure there is a smooth chamfer inside the case neck. Generally the expander button rounds the case neck out. If the case necks are round, sizing w/o the button is fine, at least on RCBS & Redding dies I use mostly for rifle.

 

[15Krounds]

Check the size of your expander ball.

Wrong bullet or defective die?
Wrong exp. ball?

The Size die and exp. ball controls neck tension fit, not the seat/crimp die.

Are you bumping the shoulder back a little?

The ball measures up at a strong .223" The bullets are solid .224".

Is that the correct size for the expander ball? I backed off the crimp die a quarter turn and it seems to have helped just a bit. Only tried about ten more rounds and I had two that loosened up when I put gentle pressure on them.

Not sure why my video isn't working. I'll see if I can get it fixed. It's only a 4 second clip of me wiggling the bullet in the case.

 

[Bruce51]

A .223" expander ball is a bit larger than I would like to use.

I took mine down to .220" by polishing it in a drill with some 600 grit wet or dry.

What OAL have you been trying?

There is only a short case neck and just a short section of straight shank on on the bullet to hold case neck tension.

Using your calipers determine where the ogive starts on the bullet. The bullet ogive should not enter the case.

BLM

 

[Mad_Charlie]

I would back off the crimping entirely, and polish the exp. ball down to .221-.222.

I don't use any crimp for my AR15 or my M1a for general use ammo, and I would just use a kiss of roll crimp for "battle" ammo, and for that I buy battlepacks of good "surplus".
Of course this assumes the bullet having .002-.003 press fit or "neck tension"

Too much crimp can actually loosen the bullet to case fit using standard dies. I dunno about FCD's, never used one.

 

[15Krounds]

A .223" expander ball is a bit larger than I would like to use.

I took mine down to .220" by polishing it in a drill with some 600 grit wet or dry.

What OAL have you been trying?

There is only a short case neck and just a short section of straight shank on on the bullet to hold case neck tension.

Using your calipers determine where the ogive starts on the bullet. The bullet ogive should not enter the case.

BLM

I'll take the expander ball down a bit. It just surprises me that new Dillon dies would need work like this.

I've seated the bullets so the end of the case hits right in the middle of the cannelure. With those Hornady spire points it gives an overall length of 2.190" If the end of the case is at the cannelure, there should be no taper or ogive there.

I did have a similar problem trying some Sierra 69 grain match kings too.

Thanks again for your help here.

 

[fredj338]

Fwiw, I don't crimp for my ar. I am using RCBS x-die to size. It's a little diff than the button on most sizing dies, but I have no issues with setback or neck tension. Try w/o the button, if you get good neck tension, then it's time to polish down to 0.222"+/-. It doesn't take much to get good neck tension.

 

[Bruce51]

Sometimes we have to make adjustments to get things right.

I rechecked mine with a micrometer instead of a caliper and I'm at .221".

I gave the expander ball a nice taper on both ends to ease entry and exit.

Try for .222" as suggested and I bet that solves the problem. If not then back off of the crimp.

Years ago my brand new RCBS dies for the .44 magnum and .45 Colt would not roll crimp the cases.

I had to grind down the bottoms until cases could reach the crimp.

Who would think that RCBS would make the die too long.

Just an example how sometimes we need to make things right.

BLM

 

[scooter123]

I would find it extremely surprising if the expander ball for your Dillon die measures at 0.223 inch, they have a reputation for first rank quality and I would expect your expander to measure between 0.217 and 0.219 inch.

I can also tell you that the expander for my Dillon 308 die is Carbide and you'll have many many many hours trying to take that down with wet or dry sandpaper. Carbide is typically ground using Diamond grinding media and the grit used is typically much finder than 600. Measure your expander ball and if it's oversize contact Dillon, they will get a properly sized ball to you quickly at no charge at all.

PS; I still think that you missed sizing your problem cases, in large part because you are using Dillon dies. If you have a case gage I would suggest that you gage some of your assembled ammo with the "loose" bullets. If you find they are long for headspacing it's a sure bet you missed sizing those cases. If you don't have a case gage you really need to correct that, because without one I can almost guarantee you that at some point you'll have a stuck bolt and that is no fun at all.

 

[15Krounds]

I would find it extremely surprising if the expander ball for your Dillon die measures at 0.223 inch, they have a reputation for first rank quality and I would expect your expander to measure between 0.217 and 0.219 inch.

I can also tell you that the expander for my Dillon 308 die is Carbide and you'll have many many many hours trying to take that down with wet or dry sandpaper. Carbide is typically ground using Diamond grinding media and the grit used is typically much finder than 600. Measure your expander ball and if it's oversize contact Dillon, they will get a properly sized ball to you quickly at no charge at all.

PS; I still think that you missed sizing your problem cases, in large part because you are using Dillon dies. If you have a case gage I would suggest that you gage some of your assembled ammo with the "loose" bullets. If you find they are long for headspacing it's a sure bet you missed sizing those cases. If you don't have a case gage you really need to correct that, because without one I can almost guarantee you that at some point you'll have a stuck bolt and that is no fun at all.

Well I called Dillon and they said that the spec on the expander ball is .223"

I do have a case gauge and the resized brass fits in there nicely and seems to look good.

Anyhow, my chat with the Dillon tech left me to believe that the Wolf brass and this particular bullet don't get along. He suggested trying to resize some without the expander. Unfortunately, I've already resized about 500 cases with the expander on.

To test the theory that the brass is the issue, I tried some Lake City cases and they seem to hold the bullet quite well.

I guess that's how you learn the hard way. I think I'm going to use those 500 Wolf resized cases with the z-max bullets I have as they seemed to be okay.

Thanks all for helping me here.
15K