.357 Mag Powder Puff Load.

[Magload]

Well loaded my first 357 yesterday and run it across the chrono today. Well the good part of it is it was so slow it you shot low you could run out and push the bullet up before it hit the target.

It was a starting load I got off Hodgdon website .
5.3gr of CFE Pistol 158gr X-Treme RNFP WSP primer
I ended up with a Average velocity of 758 fps
By using WSP Mag primer it dropped to 729
The loads with the mag primers was a lot tighter groups.
I think the problem is they are showing their data using a 10" barrel. Mine is 4.1 Going to at least step the charge up to 5.9gr as they list max at 6.6 and that is with that 10" barrel.
Any ideas anyone? Don't susject a different powder as I only have CFE Pistol and TiteGroup and lucky to have those. Don

 

[MN2944]

I'm confused by your question. Of course, your velocity is going to be lower with a shorter barrel. Work up to max and see what happens.

 

[gwpercle]

Your data and their data will hardly ever match.
Load to the velocity or accuracy level you want and don't worry about difference in fps from a "test" barrel. Most of the time the 10 inch test barrel is just a barrel, bolted onto a universal receiver , it's not even a real gun.
Gary

 

[jimbo728]

That is way low. I think it just reflects the watered down performance of so many of todays published load data. I would work it up .5 gr at a time until you acheive the velocities you expect with out pressure problems showing up.
Jim

 

[Magload]

Yes I think there is a lot of room to go up. I suspect that even max load will show less then they got from that 10" barrel. I will be working my way there. Don

 

[Magload]

I'm confused by your question. Of course, your velocity is going to be lower with a shorter barrel. Work up to max and see what happens.

It was more of a statement of findings then a question. I figured this forum is for sharing info as much as it is for finding out answers. Don

 

[MN2944]

Any ideas anyone?Don

I guess I focused on this part. Sorry

 

[BB57]

The Hodgon data shows a 158 gr LSWC bullet from Meister Cast. I suspect they may have stopped at 6.6 gr and 1,321 fps due to leading issues. They call it a "max load" but it's only doing 28,500 psi per their own pressure numbers when SAAMI max pressure is 35,000 psi.

You can potentially push an X-treme plated bullet a little faster than that, but you'd want to watch for pressure signs.

---

In addition to the short versus long barrel differences, anytime you substitute a component you're going to get differences in pressure, velocity and accuracy. That's especially true when substituting a different bullet of the same weight.

Bearing surface, jacket hardness, core hardness and bullet diameter all vary when you switch to a different bullet, even when the weight is identical, and those factors have an impact on both the force required for the bullet to engrave in the rifling and the "stickiness" (a ballistic term) of the bullet in the bore.

In this case, you're coming up about 365 fps short of the expected velocity. Much of it is no doubt due to a 4" rather than 10" barrel, however some of it will also be due to shooting your loads in a revolver with a cylinder gap, rather than in a test barrel screwed into a universal receiver with no gap. You're probably losing 100 fps just due to the barrel gap.

Shooters often make the mistake of comparing the performance of a .357 Mag load in their 16" or 20" carbine with the performance of the same load in a 4" to 7 1/2" revolver and attribute the difference solely to differences in barrel length when barrel length is only responsible for a portion of the difference.

 

[Nevada Ed]

My 6" 686 likes this powder with the 158gr at 1170fps after
working up from 1050 fps as my starting load.

I did like how the clean up was easier with this powder.......
enjoy.

 

[rwsmith]

Look at the reputable manuals....

Look at the main manuals, Speer, Lyman, Hornady and see what has the highest load and work up to that. If it's that puny I think I would take big chance and go up 1 grain to start then start with the .5 grains.

I've got pistol loads that differ by a whole grain depending on what manual you use.

I found a +P .38 special section in an old Sierra manual and tried a STARTING LOAD. When I fired it I thought it better to back off a tad on the charge. I don't want to know what the max felt like.

 

[Magload]

I am looking for a load that will shoot like the Hornady Critical Defense rounds I am going to use for SD. They are 125 gr FTX @ 1500 fps. I guess I will just buy the FTX bullets so I can get that speed out of them. I shoot 38 Spec in the GP-100 most of the time but need to shoot 6 357 loads after finishing up for the day. Don

 

[BB57]

I found a +P .38 special section in an old Sierra manual and tried a STARTING LOAD. When I fired it I thought it better to back off a tad on the charge. I don't want to know what the max was.

Today, a +P load is supposed to generate no more than 20,000 psi.

Modern P+P loads generally don't exceed about 23,000 psi, but back in the day some of the commercial "police only" +P+ loads went as high as 30,000 psi - more or less a .357 "short magnum", along the lines of the older 38/44.

After WWII it was also not uncommon for handloaders to push N frame .38s to pressures around 23,000 psi as well.

It's hard to say what limits Sierra may have been using in an old data manual.

 

[DWalt]

One factor affecting MV which almost no one considers is the cylinder-forcing cone gap. There can be very large differences in MV from revolvers having different gaps. Someone may have quantified that relationship. I know for certain that the MV difference exists by my own tests using different revolvers having the same barrel length but different gaps, but I can't quantify it precisely.

 

[rwsmith]

Indeed..

.

It's hard to say what limits Sierra may have been using in an old data manual.

Yes, approach the top with caution. The load that I got out of their manual would have been VERY scary if I had tried anything over the minimum. Also Speer #8 was known to have loads that some consider to be actually dangerous. At least to the gun, if not the shooter.

I don't have my books with me (burned out of our house) but CFE is between Unique and Blue Dot in burn rate, so I would guess (hope) that MAGLOAD could get decent velocity with it.

The 125 grain will be easier to get to or close to the velocity with a 4" barrel than a bigger bullet. If loading true .357 rounds instead of +Ps it's gotta work.

I load 140 jhps to a little over 1000 ft/ sec. for home defense with my .357. The reason is that I don't want to blow our ears out as we are both musicians. I just believe that that will do the job. Hope I don't have to find out.


PS: This is one reason I prefer 3" barrels over snubs. Snubs are kind of borderline in velocity to what I want in the defense department. I wouldn't worry much were I armed with one, though. They've done a pretty good job for many years. I just like a little extra insurance.

PPS My 9mm (outside defense) loads are a good bit hotter but still not Buffalo Bore or Cor Bon type stuff.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

5.3gr of CFE Pistol 158gr X-Treme RNFP WSP primer I ended up with a Average velocity of 758 fps

Are these Xtreme's cast or plated bullets?

.

 

[scooter123]

Burn rate for CFE Pistol is in the range of Accurate #5, which IMO is too fast for a 158 grain jacketed/plated bullet. However, I do know from experience that #5 works quite well with a 125 grain Hornady XTP. For a 158 grain XTP my choice is Accurate #9 which will produce 1200 fps from my 6 inch Dan Wesson.

So, with your CFE Pistol I would suggest that you limit your Magnum ammunition to those featuring a 125 grain bullet or if 158 grain bullets are a must use a Hard Cast lead bullet such as a Barry's HC. I would also urge you to NOT try and match any velocity as published by a powder manufacturer such as Hornady. Because trying to achieve an unrealistic velocity can lead to a charge that produces excess pressure. As for why the powder manufacturers use such long barrels for their tests, it's all about Marketing. People are numbers driven so if they see a powder makes faster loads than a competitor they will tend to purchase that powder. In the case of Hodgdon I've seen velocity numbers for some of their 357 Magnum data that I can't match with a 20 inch rifle, so that 10 inch barrel they are using has to be so "slick" that it's like the bullets are riding on ball bearings.

 

[Magload]

Are these Xtreme's cast or plated bullets?

.

Plated, I went to their website and they said to keep them below 1500. They must be using a thick plating as the berry's plated won't go that high. Don

 

[Magload]

Yes I am dropping down to the 125 as I have the same bullet in that weight. I only ordered half as many of those but then won't be shooting that many 357s. I found a load for them off of Hodgdon's site and going to start with test loads today. It will be interesting to see starting with the starting loads how they compare with the starting load they gave for the 158gr. well this to me is the fun of reloading and shooting.

Btw the groups were much better using WSPM primers but the LGS soaked me $10.50 for a hundred. Don

 

[alwslate]

The value of having your own chronograph cannot be overstated. Some
publishers of manuals like Speer for example use real guns for testing
so their data is more realistic. I applaud Hodgdon for many things but
their handloading data is not one of them. Factory ammo velocity
rating is the same way, test barrel velocity that your actual velocity
out of your gun will not even approach in many cases. I have also
found that magnum primers improve consistancy in just about any
load, light or heavy. Most all shops selling pistol primers that I know
of charge the same for magnum or standard. Something to consider,
Win SR primers give nearly identical results as SPMPs.

 

[mscampbell2734]

I am looking for a load that will shoot like the Hornady Critical Defense rounds I am going to use for SD. They are 125 gr FTX @ 1500 fps. I guess I will just buy the FTX bullets so I can get that speed out of them. I shoot 38 Spec in the GP-100 most of the time but need to shoot 6 357 loads after finishing up for the day. Don

Do you know that for a fact? Just like your loads were much lower then the book those factory loads could easily be much lower then advertised.

I'd chrono the load in your gun and then try to match that, NOT the 1500 fps advertised. 1500 fps is SMOKING hot to say the least, especially out of a 4" gun