Titegroup Question...

[roscoepc]

While cruising the new Cabela's and then going to the Bass Pro close by, I heard some kind'a disturbing info about the Titegroup I'm using to reload for my 500...

I was mainly looking for Large Rifle Magnum primers and during the discussion with the guy's at Bass Pro the subject of the powder I used came up. When they found out I was using Titegroup they immediately asked if I was using a "filler". I said no and that's when they got REALLY excited, telling me about a guy that blew up a 500 using Titegroup!! I asked how much powder he was using and it was 17gr, the bullet size was never mentioned. Naturally S&W and Hodgden both supposedly denied responsibility but that was not really my question to them. I asked how, if he had the correct charge, just how did this happen because Titegroup is not a "directional" powder; it doesn't have to be in contact with the primer to ignite. They told me that if the powder is laying flat it changes how the burn rate is for the powder and can jack the pressure up....

I'm like,, REALLY??? Are you sure he didn't throw a double charge in there??? They said no way, it was how the powder was positioned in the case......

I'm not the brightest bulb in the box but I'm not the dimmest one either... I've done a TON of reading/research on powders before deciding on using Titegroup because it fit's the performance parameters I'm wanting. Hogdgen doesn't have any recommendations as far as using a filler and as far as I'm concerned, I'll not be using any until they do..

In say, the 17gr of Titegroup mentioned, there is a certain amount of pressure produced when the powder is ignited.. How would the position of the powder in the case affect the pressure produced?? That is the question I'm asking you guy's! How could the pressure increase enough without a double throw of powder because I'm thinking that what happened: A double throw!!!

Thoughts anyone??? And Please, Let's stick to the one powder mentioned: Titegroup! Less confusion that way!!!

Many Thanks!!

 

[treedoc1]

Bovine excrement

Another boring day for the retail clock watchers, stories repeated often enough take on an aura of legitimacy for the feeble minded.

 

[gaijin]

While I would have serious doubts on the gunshop commandos claims, I would probably not use Titegroup for a large case, magnum pistol round.
I would be concerned about the ability to double/triple charge a round (granted, ones head would need to be somewhere else).
I stick with powders that will overflow the case in moderate to full house loads in magnum pistol calibers.

 

[roscoepc]

Another boring day for the retail clock watchers, stories repeated often enough take on an aura of legitimacy for the feeble minded.

I guess there's a reason their working at Bass Pro, eh??!!!!

 

[Rule3]

Titegroup or any very fast powder is a poor choice for the 500 SW magnum or any magnum load for that matter.

Just because there is data for it does not mean it is good

Fillers are a topic that come up from time to time and some in the old days used it. There are no manuals (current) that I know of that recommend a filler,

Use a slower powder in your 500!

 

[venomballistics]

Titegroup has been the focus of similar drama in a few Internet rants about blown guns.
Usually it's a magnum cartridge and the whole powder position thing comes up.
It may actually have legs, but it has never been proven.

This urban legend aside, there are ample reasons why this is a stupid powder choice in these cases.
It is at its best in the autos ... 380 9mm 40 45 acp ...
These are short, allowing for a better view of potential double charges.
In revolver cartridges, you are hard pressed to get a good look at the level of the powder way down in the bottom of these cases.
You are just better off with a powder like unique, power pistol, or cfe pistol in these cases.

 

[fredj338]

No ono ever kb a gun with a correct load of uber fast powder. It's a detonation theory that goes back to bullseye & 148gr wc in the 38sp. It's never been lab duplicated to my knowledge. What usually happens is a double or triple charge going un seen in the large case. I wouldn't use TG for a 500 if it were given to me for free, partly for that reason. I like powders that fill the case at least 1/2 way. In a 500, it would need to be something like 2400, which is pretty hard to come by. Even unique is a better bet than TG in the 500.

 

[roscoepc]

No ono ever kb a gun with a correct load of uber fast powder. It's a detonation theory that goes back to bullseye & we in the 38sp. It's never been lab duplicated to my knowledge. What usually happens is a double or triple charge going un seen in the large case. I wouldn't use TG for a 500 if it were given to me for free, partly for that reason. I like powders that fill the case 1/2 way. In a 500, it would need to be something like 2400, which is pretty hard to come by.

What I underlined on your post is precisely just why I'm using Titegroup!! It's actually available in my area! I fully understand the dangers of a double or, God help me, a triple throw!! That's why I'm so anal when I do my loading! I know stuff happens BUT, I've done my best to eliminate any room for error to the bare minimum!!

That said..... I'm still looking for an answer to my initial question which is in my 1st post!!

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

 

[venomballistics]

What I underlined on your post is precisely just why I'm using Titegroup!! It's actually available in my area! I fully understand the dangers of a double or, God help me, a triple throw!! That's why I'm so anal when I do my loading! I know stuff happens BUT, I've done my best to eliminate any room for error to the bare minimum!!

That said..... I'm still looking for an answer to my initial question which is in my 1st post!!

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

IMR 4227
this has been one of the more available propellants through the crunch as many people seem to thumb their noses at it.
See what this one can do for you.
If at all similar to the results gained from the 460, you will be quite pleased.

 

[Beemer-mark]

I never loaded for a cartridge like the 500 so I can't really offer too much advice. None of my reloading manuals recommend a filler for your cartridge. The again none of them have a load for TG. That seems an awful fast powder for a really big case.

 

[roscoepc]

IMR 4227
this has been one of the more available propellants through the crunch as many people seem to thumb their noses at it.
See what this one can do for you.
If at all similar to the results gained from the 460, you will be quite pleased.

I'll check into it, Thanks!!

 

[roscoepc]

I never loaded for a cartridge like the 500 so I can't really offer too much advice. None of my reloading manuals recommend a filler for your cartridge. The again none of them have a load for TG. That seems an awful fast powder for a really big case.

A link to Hodgdens you might like: Reloading for Beginners | Hodgdon Reloading

Check out the Reloading Data Center on the bottom left of the page......

 

[Carrier]

What I underlined on your post is precisely just why I'm using Titegroup!! It's actually available in my area! I fully understand the dangers of a double or, God help me, a triple throw!! That's why I'm so anal when I do my loading! I know stuff happens BUT, I've done my best to eliminate any room for error to the bare minimum!!

That said..... I'm still looking for an answer to my initial question which is in my 1st post!!

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

I'm the same as you. I bought an 8lb jug because powder is so hit and miss where I'm at and I'm also fairly new to reloading. Then I started hearing all the stories of nuclear bombs being let off because of it. Getting ready to load some 38 special and 9mm with it as I shoot with a guy at the range that uses it in just about everything he has up to 44 magnum.
He said it measures better than most other powders but you have to be attentive when loading with it. He shoots there a lot and has been using it for several years and if there had been an issue he would say so.

 

[roscoepc]

When I load I do it in lot's of 50. When I prime, I do it in lot's of 10 for the 50 I want loaded.. When I throw powder, I throw 12.0gr + 0.2gr, I measure EVERY TIME, then pour into the primed casing, set the bullet into the case and lock it with the press.

I do NOT walk away from a case that I've just poured powder into!!!

Period!!!!

It just don't happen......

To summarize, when I pour the powder, I'm loading lot's of One!!!!!!

 

[John R]

More folk lore.

 

[Rule3]

What I underlined on your post is precisely just why I'm using Titegroup!! It's actually available in my area! I fully understand the dangers of a double or, God help me, a triple throw!! That's why I'm so anal when I do my loading! I know stuff happens BUT, I've done my best to eliminate any room for error to the bare minimum!!

That said..... I'm still looking for an answer to my initial question which is in my 1st post!!

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

I thought I did??

Filler is a a old wives tale or old reloaders trick.

It does nothing other than keep the powder pushed down towards the primer so supposedly it ignites better, Some powders are position sensitive, Regardless it is a lame thing to do to try and use the wrong powder.

Do a search on it. Use popcorn so you can have a snack or use rice or wheat for puffed cereal.

 

[O.G.]

Dear Roscoepc !
My answer to your question is phisical-chemical , the total burn time of a charge is affected by the burn-rate and the distance the flame has to travel in the material (you have to multiply the two) , the prsure-peak timeing is built relatively to the answer to the mentiond equation and the prsure-peak-fortitude is affected by it too and the surface-erea and the volume of the chamber (all 3 variables) .
So if the surface erea ignited is larger in one case - no doubt the presure-peak will be differnt ! .
So if the powder is filling the cartridge totally , the surface-erea ignited is the cut-width-erea of the cartridge, and if the powder is less in volume than it can get a lot bigger ignition-surface (cut-length-erea) of the cartridge .
To my humble opinion, if you will use a solid filler on top of the powder charge you will eliminate the possibility of higher presure-peak.
Good luck
O.g.

 

[fredj338]

What I underlined on your post is precisely just why I'm using Titegroup!! It's actually available in my area! I fully understand the dangers of a double or, God help me, a triple throw!! That's why I'm so anal when I do my loading! I know stuff happens BUT, I've done my best to eliminate any room for error to the bare minimum!!

That said..... I'm still looking for an answer to my initial question which is in my 1st post!!

Thanks for all the responses so far!!

Any medium burner would work better than TG in any magnum case. Power pistol would be just one example. Regardless of how careful you are, it's just hard to see if you have just a single charge of TG in a large case. TG is at its best for light loads, something I wouldn't buy a 500 for.
I've used fillers for handgun powder in large cases like 45-70, but for really light loads. Using fillers for loads already at or near max, not a good idea. You are effectively compressing the powder.
Again, detonation theory of small charges of fast powder lying flat in the case & the primer spark abnormally igniting or detonating the powder has never been lab proven to my knowledge. Guys that double charge their magnums with TG will claim it just couldn't have happened, but I'm 99.9% sure that is exactly what is happening when the gun goes KB.

 

[chief38]

I have been using TG for .38 Special and .45 ACP for many years with excellent results and never any problems.

Behind a catastrophic gun even like the OP posted, I would bet there is much more to that story that anyone here is aware of. Too much powder, too little powder, mixed or contaminated powder - who knows! Many times these stories are a bunch of BS and made as they go deals. Never use ANY POWDER or ANY COMPONENT for something that it isn't recommended by the Manufacturer for - is my general rule. Paying attention while reloading is of the utmost importance and something that must be constantly reinforced and practiced - especially as we seasoned re-loaders tend to get complacent with over the years.

 

[stu1ritter]

Hornady has published load data for the 500 S&W Magnum and Titegroup covering bullets from 325 gr right on up to 500 gr and pressures ranging from 22.500 psi on right up to 50,700 psi with loads ranging from 11 gr of powder right on up to 20 grains. Sounds safe to me.