18" Remington 870 for me. My friends scolded me for getting the 3 round tube instead of the 5. Since 1 should do the trick I don't spend too much time worrying about is. I had a Mossberg model 500 but I sold it to my brother in law. It was every bid a adequate as the Remington. There is a line of reasoning that advocates using light target loads for close range SD. I get the point but I'm not sure I agree. On the flip side, I hate the idea of 3" Magnums for SD. I use Remington "Managed Recoil" 00 Buck loads. 8 pellets instead of 9 and the velocity is throttled back to 1200 FPS. Those two factors tame the recoil pretty well.
Shotguns and ammo for home defense
- Thread starter CraigG58
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Yes, but when bird hunting, your target is a heck of a lot further away than a burglar would be, and you're also more than likely using a longer barrel so you're probably not getting nearly as big a spread as an 18" barrel would give you at close range.
As far as the pistol grip goes, I've never had a problem in hitting anything at close range shooting from the hip with this weapon, especially since it's also equipped with a tactical flashlight. I also find that it makes the gun much more maneuverable in close quarters. And finally, with smaller sized shot the recoil is nowhere near what shooting buckshot out of it would be.
The latter is just a matter of taste and what you're able to accomplish with your weapon, I guess.
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I keep a 20ga Remington 870 and use #3 buckshot.
I don't have a link, but years ago there was an in depth article in one of the gun rags where they tested various shotgun loads for penetration vs sheetrock. They came to the conclusion that #3 buck in 20ga and #4 buck in 12ga was the best compromise of lethality vs over-penetration.
Not that it won't penetrate two layers of sheetrock, but after four layers it was sufficiently degraded ballistically to be less than lethal. Even 6 or 8 shot is likely to penetrate sheetrock.
At very close range, like 10 feet, birdshot will work. At 50 feet it will be worthless.
I don't have a link, but years ago there was an in depth article in one of the gun rags where they tested various shotgun loads for penetration vs sheetrock. They came to the conclusion that #3 buck in 20ga and #4 buck in 12ga was the best compromise of lethality vs over-penetration.
Not that it won't penetrate two layers of sheetrock, but after four layers it was sufficiently degraded ballistically to be less than lethal. Even 6 or 8 shot is likely to penetrate sheetrock.
At very close range, like 10 feet, birdshot will work. At 50 feet it will be worthless.
Any load that will penetrate a bad guy deeply enough to cause an incapacitating wound is capable of causing serious injuries after passing through wallboard. My philosophy therefore is you should use the best ammunition in order to end the situation in as few shots as possible. The fewer shots I fire, the fewer chances I have to miss. The sooner the bad guy goes down, the fewer shots he can fire, both hits on me and misses that can also over-penetrate.
#1 buck is supposed to be the ideal shot size:
I may just do some experimentation with those rounds, thanks for the suggestion!
Exactly my current line of thought, thank you.
Very interesting video Mister X, thanks for posting it. This guy makes a lot of good points.
The only two people in my house are my wife and I, in the same bed of course, and with that in mind my tactic would be to let the intruder come to me. After all, he's likely not familiar with the layout of my house, and that's to my advantage once he steps into my bedroom if I remain in a static position.
The only two people in my house are my wife and I, in the same bed of course, and with that in mind my tactic would be to let the intruder come to me. After all, he's likely not familiar with the layout of my house, and that's to my advantage once he steps into my bedroom if I remain in a static position.
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from box of truth
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth
A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want… to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing.
The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth
A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want… to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing.
"Friendlys everywhere" is obviously an important point in my first post.
Several people have mentioned mixing rounds, with the heavy duty stuff further down the tube just in case. I like this idea, never thought of it before. Thanks to those with that suggestion! Again, some experimentation is in order on my end.
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As an example scenario, consider a .357 magnum versus a .44 magnum. There's penetration, and then there's penetration!
I think finding a happy medium is the key. Eventually the line of overkill is bound to be crossed, and it's my opinion that can lead to a very bad situations... Like having a round zip through a bad guy, then through a wall, and wind up exactly where you don't want it to be.
Would you please let me know what these lighter SD loads might be? Thanks!
How many times? ;^)
Without reading everyone's comments I will ask this question:
Have you ever seen what 12 gauge 71/2 bird shot can do from 12 or 15 feet to sheet metal?
I tried that once whilst dove hunting on a collapsed barn with on wall standing. I blew a hole in the sheet metal between 6 and 10 inches we with scattered smaller holes creating a larger pattern.
That satisfied me that bird shot will suffice for home defense and I don't have to worry about buckshot reaching to my neighbor's homes.
End of the story for me. I just report these facts every time this issue comes up wherever I might be. Buckshot is overkill in your home IMHO.
That is correct; I have no argument with that statement. Why I am in a gunfight at 50 feet inside my home is problematic. I don't have any line of sight therein except MAYBE one and if I'm in the hallway and the perp is at the far end of the house one shot from the shotgun will tell him what's coming and the second shot will be from much closer range.
If I am in a gunfight outside of my house it's a whole other subject for a different thread.
Have you ever seen what 12 gauge 71/2 bird shot can do from 12 or 15 feet to sheet metal?
I tried that once whilst dove hunting on a collapsed barn with on wall standing. I blew a hole in the sheet metal between 6 and 10 inches we with scattered smaller holes creating a larger pattern.
That satisfied me that bird shot will suffice for home defense and I don't have to worry about buckshot reaching to my neighbor's homes.
End of the story for me. I just report these facts every time this issue comes up wherever I might be. Buckshot is overkill in your home IMHO.
That is correct; I have no argument with that statement. Why I am in a gunfight at 50 feet inside my home is problematic. I don't have any line of sight therein except MAYBE one and if I'm in the hallway and the perp is at the far end of the house one shot from the shotgun will tell him what's coming and the second shot will be from much closer range.
If I am in a gunfight outside of my house it's a whole other subject for a different thread.
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I've killed a lot of land mammals with 1 1/8 oz #4 and #2 lead birdshot, #1 and BB steel, at close range. I've seen what kills outright and what wounds on animals to about 60 lbs. frequently, some years being busier than others. Will birdshot kill a man at 7 yards? To be perfectly honest, yes, it probably will do the trick. The problem is, it only takes a few factors before it goes from killing to pretty worthless, pretty quickly I might add. Every foot closer makes it far deadlier, and every inch further puts that whole affair in question. When life and death are on the line, would you want to trust your life to such a fickle load?
IF, and I don't recommend birdshot, IF you are going to shoot birdshot, run a 22inch barrel at least, and FULL choke only. The only other choice is extra full or turkey choke You are trying to make the birdshot hit as if it were a slug; spread is what you want to avoid at all costs. The cop shotgun, 18 inch barrel and mod to, absolutely the worst choice in the world for birdshot, cylinder bore, is the worst combination you could possibly choose. When you talk about the birdshot having extremely short terminal range for effectiveness, that extremely short range is made much worse by short barrels and open chokes. IF, and I don't support the choice, IF you choose birdshot, a 26 inch turkey choked shotgun is the choice you should stick too, rather than an off the rack 18 inch cylinder bore. Open up that pattern, and you could cut the effectiveness of that load from a short 10 yards to perhaps even a 5 yard, or even shorter.
Keep combat shotgun barrels to what they were intended for, which is slugs. They are open choked and short to maximize slug accuracy, to make them capable of 100 yard fighting if need be. They aren't great for patterning buckshot, and shorten the range of that as well, much less birdshot, which relies SOLELY on pattern to have any effect at all. IF you are going to use birdshot out of a short open choke barrel, choose one of the new fancy super close patterning wad loads, Flight Control, ect., that can actually give good tight patterns out of an open choke. Otherwise, you really are setting yourself up for a dangerous situation where you could spray someone with a load of little lead pellets and fail to slow them down or stop them.
It ends up with your situation, as has been stated numerous times. Some people live in crowded apartment complexes and worry about hitting their own loved ones or neighbors, and in such extreme cramped quarters, feel that birdshot would do anyway, and have considerations of collateral damage. Some are out in the country, and some inbetween. Birdshot should be considered a specialty round, for those who know themselves, the situations, the surroundings, and have made a very well informed decision. Otherwise, for most people's range and house, surroudnings, ect., buckshot is always preferred. Buckshot can easily be lethal up to and even past 100 yards, can punch deep through the torso of an attacker, and can get through limbs to the heart of the matter. It easily exceeds the ranges most self defense situations will incur, and has adequate penetration. Its effectiveness in real life scenarios proceeds it, for good reason. Also consider its over penetration and punch through of hard objects to be, sometimes, highly exaggerated.
The concept of #1 buck for close range defense certainly has many merits compared to 00. 00 is the usual choice of law enforcement and more universal because it extends the range of the load quite a bit, ensuring ability to punch through harder objects in law enforcement situations, as well as better penetration at longer ranges. But for Average Joe, in his house, #1 offers more than enough punch, and more pellets for shot weight, making it equal to perhaps superior. #4-2 buck will probably work well at these shorter ranges, but the increase in pellet count is probably not worth it.
Personally, I own several shotguns, and consider all of them to be useful. They have always been the go to on the farm to get rid of pests, so when I'm at home one is always handy. From a cheap Russian double barrel that has done a lot of the work, to a couple of 12 gauge pumps, I use full chokes, 26 inch barrels, and 2 3/4 cheap Rio magnum 00 buckshot. Not combat style shotguns, and not super ammo, but then again they are hunting shotguns I know inside and out, have used on clay and in the field enough to shoot it well in a real life scenario, and cheap practice ammo that will be no different than the rounds I've ran out of them for fun. Familiarity beats speciality. If you've shot hundreds of clay pidgeons, ducks, grouse, ect., you are already adept at quickly swinging that big ol long barrel gun in real life, so doing so in a real life defense situation will be more natural than a short barrel gun you may not practice the same way with.
I've been switching over to 10 bore now, and have a BPS 10 loaded with handload 15 pellet 00 buckshot that will pattern all 15 pellets into a center mass at 35 yards. Good for point blank, and still good enough for most situations.
IF, and I don't recommend birdshot, IF you are going to shoot birdshot, run a 22inch barrel at least, and FULL choke only. The only other choice is extra full or turkey choke You are trying to make the birdshot hit as if it were a slug; spread is what you want to avoid at all costs. The cop shotgun, 18 inch barrel and mod to, absolutely the worst choice in the world for birdshot, cylinder bore, is the worst combination you could possibly choose. When you talk about the birdshot having extremely short terminal range for effectiveness, that extremely short range is made much worse by short barrels and open chokes. IF, and I don't support the choice, IF you choose birdshot, a 26 inch turkey choked shotgun is the choice you should stick too, rather than an off the rack 18 inch cylinder bore. Open up that pattern, and you could cut the effectiveness of that load from a short 10 yards to perhaps even a 5 yard, or even shorter.
Keep combat shotgun barrels to what they were intended for, which is slugs. They are open choked and short to maximize slug accuracy, to make them capable of 100 yard fighting if need be. They aren't great for patterning buckshot, and shorten the range of that as well, much less birdshot, which relies SOLELY on pattern to have any effect at all. IF you are going to use birdshot out of a short open choke barrel, choose one of the new fancy super close patterning wad loads, Flight Control, ect., that can actually give good tight patterns out of an open choke. Otherwise, you really are setting yourself up for a dangerous situation where you could spray someone with a load of little lead pellets and fail to slow them down or stop them.
It ends up with your situation, as has been stated numerous times. Some people live in crowded apartment complexes and worry about hitting their own loved ones or neighbors, and in such extreme cramped quarters, feel that birdshot would do anyway, and have considerations of collateral damage. Some are out in the country, and some inbetween. Birdshot should be considered a specialty round, for those who know themselves, the situations, the surroundings, and have made a very well informed decision. Otherwise, for most people's range and house, surroudnings, ect., buckshot is always preferred. Buckshot can easily be lethal up to and even past 100 yards, can punch deep through the torso of an attacker, and can get through limbs to the heart of the matter. It easily exceeds the ranges most self defense situations will incur, and has adequate penetration. Its effectiveness in real life scenarios proceeds it, for good reason. Also consider its over penetration and punch through of hard objects to be, sometimes, highly exaggerated.
The concept of #1 buck for close range defense certainly has many merits compared to 00. 00 is the usual choice of law enforcement and more universal because it extends the range of the load quite a bit, ensuring ability to punch through harder objects in law enforcement situations, as well as better penetration at longer ranges. But for Average Joe, in his house, #1 offers more than enough punch, and more pellets for shot weight, making it equal to perhaps superior. #4-2 buck will probably work well at these shorter ranges, but the increase in pellet count is probably not worth it.
Personally, I own several shotguns, and consider all of them to be useful. They have always been the go to on the farm to get rid of pests, so when I'm at home one is always handy. From a cheap Russian double barrel that has done a lot of the work, to a couple of 12 gauge pumps, I use full chokes, 26 inch barrels, and 2 3/4 cheap Rio magnum 00 buckshot. Not combat style shotguns, and not super ammo, but then again they are hunting shotguns I know inside and out, have used on clay and in the field enough to shoot it well in a real life scenario, and cheap practice ammo that will be no different than the rounds I've ran out of them for fun. Familiarity beats speciality. If you've shot hundreds of clay pidgeons, ducks, grouse, ect., you are already adept at quickly swinging that big ol long barrel gun in real life, so doing so in a real life defense situation will be more natural than a short barrel gun you may not practice the same way with.
I've been switching over to 10 bore now, and have a BPS 10 loaded with handload 15 pellet 00 buckshot that will pattern all 15 pellets into a center mass at 35 yards. Good for point blank, and still good enough for most situations.
cyphertext
US Veteran
That means nothing... My pellet gun can shoot through a sheet metal barn too, but that doesn't mean it is a good HD round.
Barn sheet metal isn't even 1/4" thick for the good stuff... Hardly compares to the penetration needed to reach internal organs to insure a stop.
Birdshot might work at across the room distance, but it might not. I don't have that same question when using buckshot.
My HD shotgun is a 686 Beretta with 28 in. barrels and 00 buck. I haven't ever lived in a house that the rooms are so small that I didn't have enough space to swing 28 in. barrels. Ejectors makes it quicker to reload. I can also hunt with it. Larry
cyphertext
US Veteran
If you are planning to be stationary with it, then that is fine... but try walking down the hallway and entering a room while moving the barrel to get on target at someone in the far corner on the same wall that the door is on...
Backlighting
Member
If I wanted to defend my home from assailants, assuming I lived on a ranch or other large land parcel I'd definitely have a M1A, M-1 Garand or a S&W MP10...all of which have high cap mags and are chambered in 308.
For inside the home I like hand guns over shotguns...they're easier to maneuver in tight quarters, such as closets small rooms and stairwells.
For inside the home I like hand guns over shotguns...they're easier to maneuver in tight quarters, such as closets small rooms and stairwells.
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I don't think you should look at buckshot, outside of point blank, as a totality of the payload as far as penetration goes.
It varies by load of course, but a typical load: #3 and #4 are pretty close in size, roughly .25 caliber, about 25gr. Muzzle velocity is 1200 fps. Looking at it as individual pellets, those are going to shed velocity quickly.
A .32 caliber black powder squirrel rifle throws a larger diameter, and heavier 45 gr round ball, at roughly the same velocity. I don't believe that has the reputation for excessive penetration.
It varies by load of course, but a typical load: #3 and #4 are pretty close in size, roughly .25 caliber, about 25gr. Muzzle velocity is 1200 fps. Looking at it as individual pellets, those are going to shed velocity quickly.
A .32 caliber black powder squirrel rifle throws a larger diameter, and heavier 45 gr round ball, at roughly the same velocity. I don't believe that has the reputation for excessive penetration.
Remington Model 870 12 Gauge 18" barrel loaded with #4 Buckshot.
At home defense range bird shot is as effective as buckshot
At home defense range bird shot is as effective as buckshot
Harkrader
Member
CraigG58:
One I have seen tested, and which I have here, is Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition, 12 Gauge 2-3/4", Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot, 9 Pellets.
It doesn't feel a light softer until fired alternately with full-power shells. The BLAST, however, seems about the same to me.
I haven't tried this: Fiocchi: Our 12LE00BK offers 9 pellets of #00 nickel- plated buckshot. Fiocchi offers a choice of reduced recoil full bore slugs, a 1 ounce at 1150 fps (12LRSLUG) or a 7/8 ounce slug at 1300 fps. Our 7/8 ounce slug is often preferred by Tree Gun Competition shooters for its accuracy and fast trajectory.
USCCA likes Winchester's AA Trap and Skeet. They say that loaded with approximately an ounce of #7 ½, #8 or #9 shot, patterns are tight. I haven't tried it.
Also rated is Remington's Managed Recoil™ 8 pellet 00 load, another I haven't tried.
They also rated Remington's HD Ultimate Home Defense, and I haven't tried it.
Another more general comment is to use 20 gage shells. I think that may be the way to go. One of our sons is professional military and his "truck gun" is a single barrel 16 gage. I don't remember what ammo he uses in it, but he has convinced me that at car-to-car distances it'll do very well.
Hope this helps.
One I have seen tested, and which I have here, is Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition, 12 Gauge 2-3/4", Reduced Recoil 00 Buckshot, 9 Pellets.
It doesn't feel a light softer until fired alternately with full-power shells. The BLAST, however, seems about the same to me.
I haven't tried this: Fiocchi: Our 12LE00BK offers 9 pellets of #00 nickel- plated buckshot. Fiocchi offers a choice of reduced recoil full bore slugs, a 1 ounce at 1150 fps (12LRSLUG) or a 7/8 ounce slug at 1300 fps. Our 7/8 ounce slug is often preferred by Tree Gun Competition shooters for its accuracy and fast trajectory.
USCCA likes Winchester's AA Trap and Skeet. They say that loaded with approximately an ounce of #7 ½, #8 or #9 shot, patterns are tight. I haven't tried it.
Also rated is Remington's Managed Recoil™ 8 pellet 00 load, another I haven't tried.
They also rated Remington's HD Ultimate Home Defense, and I haven't tried it.
Another more general comment is to use 20 gage shells. I think that may be the way to go. One of our sons is professional military and his "truck gun" is a single barrel 16 gage. I don't remember what ammo he uses in it, but he has convinced me that at car-to-car distances it'll do very well.
Hope this helps.
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