Lawyers: 2 questions

Okay, as some here probably know, I was a career prosecutor. After 30 months in SE Asia and almost 11 years as a police officer, this high school drop out had a couple or three degrees and started law school.

I became an Assistant State Attorney and loved it. I never felt the type of job satisfaction as a police officer that I enjoyed as a prosecutor.

I was (still am) an introvert. Yet I loved trial work. I tried as many cases as I could, even when I worked up the chain to the point I didn't have to.

I felt good about myself when I went home at night (most nights anyway)-the type of job satisfaction I rarely felt as a police officer.

If I graduated from law school today, I'd become a prosecutor again. Maybe not for the career, but for the trial experience. No other legal job gives one as much. Public defenders come close, but prosecutors generally try more cases.

Another benefit is that the cases we try often stink. Especially in the early days when one is working in misdemeanor court. Hard to explain, but the best experience seems to be in those courts trying cases that seem to be impossible to win. I found I was amazed at how many of those "dogs" I won.

Here's the thing, though. One has to be careful about where one wants to work.

Some places let the Assistant handle the case as the lawyer, making decisions about the case. We didn't. We could not drop charges, nor offer to accept a lesser unless we had at least one supervisor's permission. Sometimes, we had to go to the State Attorney himself for permission, depending on the type of case. Even as a higher level supervisor, I could not agree to accept a lesser plea in a murder case-that had to be agreed to by the State Attorney.

Some prosecutors didn't like that and didn't stay with the office. I understand.

Some places may evaluate the prosecutor on his/her win/loss record. We never did. There was never any criticism for losing a case as long as the Assistant was prepared for trial and did his/her best.

Think about it this way-if you were evaluated based on win/loss records, wouldn't you stand on your head to avoid trying a case that you were likely to lose? And, far worse in my opinion, wouldn't you be more inclined to "cut corners" or maybe even "cheat" in a trial if you knew the result, if unfavorable, might hurt your career?

Some places are more political than others. We've had two State Attorneys since 1968, so everything is pretty stable here, but not so much in some other circuits.

So, I'd want to know about the stability of the office and how Assistants were evaluated in choosing where to apply for a position.

Larger offices seem, to me, to offer more opportunities for advancement and for experience. But ymmv on that.
Mine had over 200 lawyers and had many specialty divisions, so that, IMO, was good (at least for me).

These are just a few thoughts on prosecuting, and if I can conclude with this-consider the reputation of the office. Is there any suggestion of corruption? Avoid it like the plague. Is it political-do the Assistants change when the top dog leaves? Avoid it like the plague. What do the cops say about the office? What does the local media say?

I loved my job from the first day till the last. There were some frustrations, but the good days certainly far exceeded the bad ones.

Bob
 
I was a prosecutor right after I got out of law school. I went to doing defense appeals pretty quickly, though, and nowadays I mostly do the varied sorts of administrative and civil law you find at the top of a statewide agency.

So, advice for a kid who wants to be a prosecutor. I wanted to be a prosecutor! Man, that's what I wanted to do: to fix things, to set them right! Thing is, paying jobs on the state side of things are thin on the ground for law students, so I got hired on the other side while I attended school. Law clerking for the defense proved to be pretty useful: exposure to both sides of the criminal aisle is a good idea for any attorney practicing in the arena, because it illuminates how things should be done, which lets a person know when they're not being done properly. I'd advise an aspiring prosecutor to try to work for the defense during law school.

And realize that your thoughts as to the practice best suited for you is likely to evolve as you learn. Neither my wife nor I wound up on the practice path we envisioned when we started law school.

Prosecutor and public defender jobs nowadays (not when I was a pup) frequently have loan-forgiveness provisions attached (after 10 years or something). This has made competition for these low-paying high-stress jobs a lot more interesting than it has been in the past. As someone at the C-level of my statewide agency, I can tell you that we have many more applicants for our starter public defender positions than we had in the past. And I've come to understand from colleagues in my position in other states that the competition is even fiercer there.

The comments suggesting he familiarize himself with the local political situation are good ones. He should do what I did when considering the LSAT and take a senior local prosecutor to lunch: ask for advice locally.

But have him do a serious assessment of his abilities: competition is fierce and essentially no one likes law school (it was a horrible time for me, in retrospect). A whole lot of people drop out after the first semester. And plowing through only to learn you're now one of thousands of unemployed lawyers competing for a few gigs is no fun, either.

I guess I've been pretty successful at my work and I'm held to be pretty good at it. But like Caje and so many lawyers of my acquaintance, I've not come to feel a love for the law, but rather an amazement that things work as well as they do given the flaws I see everywhere. And, like Caje, if I had it to do over again knowing what I know, I suspect I'd do something else. The retirement is great (at least in my state), but I know a lot of retired prosecutors who hate the taste the law has left in their mouths.
 
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bushmaster1313 said:
When there is only one lawyer in town it's hard to make ends meet.

When there are two lawyers they can both do well.
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True........ half a pie is good.......... 1/20 not so much.

I ended up in health care.... In-house Counsel at a 250 bed community hospital right out of law school (long, strange story)......followed by a decade at a 600 bed teaching hospital (VP Administration and General Counsel)...... then a stint as General Counsel to the State Hospital Association.

Today I consult to a number of Community Hospitals; on operational, corporate and reimburse issues.

I've done OK and had a good time doing it.... just don't know if I'd want to be starting out as a "new law school grad" in 3 or 4 years....................
 
I value what I do. I do not do it for money; our pay scale would have to improve a lot to suck. Private practice attorneys I know have been appalled at how bad the pay is for the level of responsibility. You are better off than a defense attorney because you don't have to deal directly with their clients.

The job is about the constant struggle to do the right thing for the right reasons. I have met and see far too many prosecutors (DOJ comes to mind) who cannot grasp that. They are not my brothers and sisters. I have also dealt with defense attorneys who are not competent in assisting their clients, and that appalls me. Far too many of them suck, and the system does not work right when that is true. Frankly, I meet too many attorneys who should not have graduated from high school judging by their gawdawful writing skills.
 
1. How many lawyers do we have on this site.

I do not know. Like strippers, none of us here use our real names. I know at least six here.

2. What advice would you give to a young man wishing to pursue a career as a prosecuting attorney.

Keep in mind that being on the government side in a big city by career's end if you survive will pay almost as much as the opposing law firms pay the un-graduated interns who come in for the summer to sharpen our pencils. Very few cases ever go to trial, most of a prosecuting attorney's career other than reading files is cutting deals with defense attorneys to let criminals go with lighter penalties under plea bargain to avoid the cost of trials only so few of which the government unit can afford. Also, a lot of the entry level work has been computerized. In order to get in, and get a break you need to either be better than great, or related to somebody who matters. I will leave the politics and other myth busting to another poster.
 
After years in Law Enforcement at a criminal level (drugs) I must state I am somewhat opinionated. However, I known many great DA and Judges all require a law degree.

Law practice like any true profession have different areas of practice. I wouldn't paint them all with a "broad brush" (thought I would never say that)
 
What Houston Rick says can be true-depends on how the office is run.

Mine could not work that way because the prosecutor did not have the authority to make deals without a supervisor's permission.

That made it so that a three year prosecutor has tried around 40-50 jury trials. That's a lot in a three year period.

Check out the office where you think you want to work so you know what you will be walking into as best as possible.

Only a few miles from where I am is a prosecutor's office in another circuit where the lawyers, at one time could make deals and drop charges as they wanted. Allegations of corruption (some proven) and other bad things forced a change, at least to some degree.

It's all what the new lawyer wants to get out of the job.

Bob
 
A little civics lesson here.
Prosecutors are part of the executive branch and as such their duty is to determine who gets charges with what. It is an awesome, terrifying power to have and MUST be wielded responsibly so that justice is done. You can let it go to your head ans literally ruin people's lives in the interest of "justice" and because the law allows you to, or you can be a human being. I've dealt with both types. Classic example-19 year old having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend who is one month shy from 17. Parents of the girl didn't care until she turns up pregnant and now they want blood. Doesn't help matters that the kid is black and the girl is white Law says you can charge him as a felon and make him register as a sex offender for the rest of his life plus throw him in jail for up to 10 years. Or you can charge him with misdemeanor carnal knowledge which isn't a sex reporting crime. Or you can look the girls parents in the eye and decline to prosecute cause under the facts of the case it's the right thing to do.
Pretty steep decision making to thrust upon a newbie lawyer............
Remember as prosecutor you are dealing not with money and who gets the car but with people's lives-both the defendant as well as the victims. That's not something to take lightly!!! One of my jobs as a defense lawyer is to make sure the prosecutor gets this. The criminal justice system is about people's lives-on both sides-never forget that!
 
When I was doing the Law School Public Defenders thing....... did an intake on a 30-something suburban soccer mom..... who was arrested for shoplifting shoes.....IIRC she had been caught about 2,3 or 4 times before but never prosecuted..husband had given up on her and walked out... well known to downtown shoes stores.... who finally just got tired of dealing with her.........................

she just set there and crying, saying "help me"........

it was late in my 3rd year so never knew how it worked out.........

then there were the small time drug dealers..... really just kids.......

don't think I ever had anyone claim they didn't do it.................

Real life would make terrible TV.......................

Cajun.............doing it for a career..... you're a better man than me!
 
CAJUNLAWYER said:
A little civics lesson here.
Prosecutors are part of the executive branch and as such their duty is to determine who gets charges with what. It is an awesome, terrifying power to have and MUST be wielded responsibly so that justice is done. You can let it go to your head ans literally ruin people's lives in the interest of "justice" and because the law allows you to, or you can be a human being. I've dealt with both types. Classic example-19 year old having sex with his 16 year old girlfriend who is one month shy from 17. Parents of the girl didn't care until she turns up pregnant and now they want blood. Doesn't help matters that the kid is black and the girl is white Law says you can charge him as a felon and make him register as a sex offender for the rest of his life plus throw him in jail for up to 10 years. Or you can charge him with misdemeanor carnal knowledge which isn't a sex reporting crime. Or you can look the girls parents in the eye and decline to prosecute cause under the facts of the case it's the right thing to do.
Pretty steep decision making to thrust upon a newbie lawyer............
Remember as prosecutor you are dealing not with money and who gets the car but with people's lives-both the defendant as well as the victims. That's not something to take lightly!!! One of my jobs as a defense lawyer is to make sure the prosecutor gets this. The criminal justice system is about people's lives-on both sides-never forget that!
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What he said.
A good prosecutor can often do more for first-timer defendants than half a dozen inexperienced public defenders.

There's a solid citizen I know of personally who has update his offender registration every year. Only offense, many, many years ago--2 years older than the girl. They've been happily married since the day after she was old enough to marry without her parents' consent.

Some times it is impossible to do the right thing without taking personal / political / job place flack. Sometimes it is very hard work to find a way to reach a just result within the applicable statute. Often the only good thing you can find to say about a day in the courthouse is "Damn! I'm glad that's over!" But you will sleep better on the nights when you can look back at the day and think "That was a real bitch, but I thought about it hard and gave it all I had."
 
Gotta add (and brag), that today my daughter called and announced she had gotten an email telling her that her application for law school had been accepted. Five minutes later, she called again very excited, because she had just gotten a second email about the award of a full-tuition, 3-year scholarship. She earned this on her own, with very high class ranking in 2 undergraduate degrees (the 2nd while she was working full-time on the 3 a.m shift), and teaching part-time at several area colleges on subjects as diverse as business ethics and Japanese swordcraft (two black belts), as well as at the dojo. She will probably go into some aspect of public service after law school. SWWOW and I are just proud as hell!
So, in further answer to the OP's question, encourage the son who wants to be a prosecutor!
 
rustythread said:
Gotta add (and brag), that today my daughter called and announced she had gotten an email telling her that her application for law school had been accepted. Five minutes later, she called again very excited, because she had just gotten a second email about the award of a full-tuition, 3-year scholarship. She earned this on her own, with very high class ranking in 2 undergraduate degrees (the 2nd while she was working full-time on the 3 a.m shift), and teaching part-time at several area colleges on subjects as diverse as business ethics and Japanese swordcraft (two black belts), as well as at the dojo. She will probably go into some aspect of public service after law school. SWWOW and I are just proud as hell!
So, in further answer to the OP's question, encourage the son who wants to be a prosecutor!
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Tell your daughter that I am proud for her. Tell her to throw herself into law school with her entire will. She will hate it but what it does is not teach her the law-as any lack leg criminal in jail can read law books-but it will teach her to think critically-like a lawyer. once she masters that it is all down hill. Her first two semesters are critical in that respect. It's a lot like boot camp or basic for seals/special forces. You don't know what they are doing to you until it's over. Then it hits you. If she can get through it she will never be the same-for better or worse. It is an incredibly high stress career and job burn out is huge. I am quite burnt but to tell you the truth-I kicked some *** in my day and I've still got some left.
 
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My son always wanted to ne a lawyer. He worked hard, made good grades, got into law school, graduated and passed the bar first try. Dang near starved as a private practice attorney, went to work as a lawyer for a state agency and was overworked, underpaid and way overstressed. Now he is a high ranking hospital administrator that the job required a juris doctorate. He is making a lot more money and a lot less stress and enjoying life more. As the father of a young attorney my suggestion is to work hard, study harder but be prepared for tough times and be flexible. There are lots of ways to use that law degree that do not involve courtroom work.
 
Lawyer and Plumber Collision

I read a news article recently where a lawyer and plumber were
involved in an auto collision together. Nobody got hurt, and it
really wouldn't have made the news, but how often do you see
a Rolls Royce and a Bentley collide with each other?

Stu
 
rustythread said:
Until I became a trial lawyer, I thought this was just another lawyer joke. It wasn't.

"Why do successful trial lawyers always eat a good breakfast?"

"So they have something to throw up on the way into court."
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That's why I always recommended coffee and Marlboros for a pre court breakfast of champions. It's never been the same since we all quit smoking and banned it in the courthouse :D
 
rustythread said:
Gotta add (and brag), that today my daughter called and announced she had gotten an email telling her that her application for law school had been accepted. Five minutes later, she called again very excited, because she had just gotten a second email about the award of a full-tuition, 3-year scholarship.
Click to expand...
*
Since you are in Illinois: UIUC? I hope so. Much as I hated law school and the majority of my classmates would have had to improve to be the basis for lawyer jokes, the intellectual standards are high. But C-U has a LOT of crime and crummy places to go, and campus in not immune.
I'll be there in a couple weeks working on the 3rd edition of one of our books with my co-author.
 
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