STORMINORMAN
Member
Please see my post of today: for some reason I can't be recognized and/or go to an "Advanced" posting from this screen?
Obviously no attachments, etc.
Obviously no attachments, etc.
The Really Old Chief's Special Thread
- Thread starter bmcgilvray
- Start date
STORMINORMAN
Member
It is first and foremost a "Chief's Special", further, a very early one. Nicknamed "baby chief" for the smaller trigger guard and appearance. Whomever told you it is a "Mod of 53" likely means it is a model of the Chief's Special that was likely manufactured in 1953 NOT that the name of it is named a "Mod of 53" as might be used in the Model of 1950 or 1955 target Revolver or the Model of 1891 Single Shot and revolver.
No, you misunderstand. It is a Baby Chief, Baby Chiefs are not pre models. The Model of 1953 Chiefs Specials are pre models.
'Pre model' clarification:
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a
model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.
That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term
pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish which version Chief Spl is really being discussed.
Check posts # 319 and 332 to see pre model 36s.
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STORMINORMAN
Member
Thank you, Jim. So, my friend's gun is a Baby Chiefs because of the low S/N, smaller trigger guard, flat cylinder release. It is older than those pictured on posts # 319 and 332.
It is a pre-Model 36 because it is not marked so on the frame at the crane area.
What is a "Baby J"?
Cheers!
It is a pre-Model 36 because it is not marked so on the frame at the crane area.
What is a "Baby J"?
Cheers!
Jim, now I'm confused. I've been collecting J's for many a decade now. I have never seen a Chief Special referred to as "Model of 1953" but I have seen that phrase used to describe a .22 Kit Gun of that genre. I have referred to these as only "early" Chief Specials, even before the term "baby Chief" ever came to be. Then by front sight changes in the early runs, the first "half moon" type, then the non-serrated sloped sight, and finally the serrated sloped front sight. Also by the style of the flat latches.
I have seen a series of terms used, many times ... mistakenly, but with a few more questions can usually determine exactly what the person asking or seller is describing. e.g. same thing that most NON S&W guys might describe any large frame top break a Schofield. My blood boils when someone remains adamant that they have a Schofield that turns out to be anything BUT a Schofield, yet others persist in stating Schofield-type or style revolver when it is certainly NOT a Schofield type or style. It is a Model Number 3 of whatever precise type it is, e.g. Russian 1, 2, 3, (Old, Old old remember those names ?) American 1st, 2nd, New Model 3, etc.
Also a 1st Model .44 Double action is not a New Model 3 Double action.
It comes down to this: Among collectors, an early Chief Special is usually just that, the serial number telling all, except front sight type. The smaller size with the small trigger guard is nicknamed the Baby Chief, OK.
Is this same early Chief Special (baby Chief) classified in legitimate print anywhere as a "Model of 1953" or is it just a classification to quickly and accurately describe the exact frame type, collector to collector ?
Malysh
Member
This is the reason I never use the "pre model" tag when discussing S&Ws.
What this phrase primarily does is confuse S&W neophytes.
The reason and goal of having language is to increase how well humans communicate, not make it more confusing
What this phrase primarily does is confuse S&W neophytes.
The reason and goal of having language is to increase how well humans communicate, not make it more confusing
I posted a chromed Chiefs Special in post #332. This is the brother, which is sadly inherited. SN 427XX. Grips match. Serrated front sight and flat latch. It was an ankle holster backup.
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This is the reason I never use the "pre model" tag when discussing S&Ws.
What this phrase primarily does is confuse S&W neophytes.
The reason and goal of having language is to increase how well humans communicate, not make it more confusing
When I first started collecting S&Ws (more years ago that I care to admit) the old-timers were very good to me and always willing to teach or recommend special reading, articles, books, etc. Fast forward 40+ years I have one heck of a library and hope I never have to move it.
Most of the old-time collectors (very sorry now that most of them are gone) would be eager to teach but quick (and sometimes harsh) in correcting the use of the word "pre" before any other word.
For example if it is a Chief's Special it is a Chief's Special PERIOD ! If it is a Model-36 or 36-1 then THAT is exactly what it is.
If it is a .357, it was either a Registered Magnum, Non-Registered Magnum, a Post-war ("post" war instantly tell you it "ain't" a RM or Non-RM), 5 screw, 4-screw or it was a Model 27. None were a pre-27.
In matters of description (to determine what the heck someone is describing that has not had the benefit of the years) the old timers (of which I now "are" one) usually tolerate the pre-designations because it's just too much trouble to teach proper English in a word where you have to press #1 for English and #2 for Spanish, etc.
Chief Specials are relatively straight forward. The serial number tells the most. If early, the front sight is the next question, after which the type of flat latch is next. Upper side plate screw or not, another question. If an alloy frame were once described as Chief Special, "aluminum" or "lightweight" (then Airweight ) on the progression of the boxes, the question of concern, after the serial number, is "alloy or steel cylinder". Then round or square butt, however, I never witnessed a collector find a nice old Chief's Special and refuse to buy it because it either had a round butt or a square butt.
The only exception to the Chief Specials being straight forward is the Chief's Special Target models made in several variations but began with a total of 114 in the 1955-56 time frame. That is a topic well covered in another thread.
The short moral of the story is, there is really no such thing as a "pre" ANTYTHING to a hard core S&W collector, although "pre-war" seemed to be OK to use. If you had to ask which war, you just lost a source of information.
Should any elder statesman ever use the word "pre" it is only because he gave up trying to teach the differences between the use of word ... that some newer collectors might think is "splitting-hairs" or being uppity or snobbish.
If you think that is the case, you're wrong. Many years ago the first (and only) person to ever cut me to size (and I am VERY tall) for using the "Pre" designation was the Commander-in-Chief (himself) ... the only guy knows more about S&Ws than anyone else on the planet and who owns of the words "Smith & Wesson" regardless of who owns the trademark.
I was always under the impression that the original name designated was "Chief's Special" yet I see most print as "Chiefs Special", (without the apostrophe .
So what is it ? Is it a "Chief's" Special, a "Chiefs" Special ?
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHy6tgXfGhw[/ame]
The Baby Chiefs introduced the new J size frame, so Baby J is the same thing. They also had the short grip frame of the I frames of that period.
Pre models: please see my next post.
model3sw,
1. Look for big changes in the currently being revised SCSW 4th ed. regarding I & J updates. For previews see my commentaries here:
Smith & Wesson Forum - Hondo44
2. Chiefs Special as marketed and written by S&W is plural but not possessive.
3. I don't personally like the term Pre-Model . It's more often used incorrectly.
As Lee Jarrett has posted; "A Model T Ford can be called a pre model Thunderbird, but is it really?"
The definition of 'pre-model' is clearly defined in the N frame HE models from the SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153 but its use in the Glossary Pg. 423 and in the small frame HE sections is inconsistent and contradictory.
PRE MODELS: CLARIFICATION AND CONSISTENCY OF USE
N frames from SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153:
1. Pre-war models up thru 1941
2. Wartime production models
3. Transitional models (post war) 1945-1950
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1950 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.
5. Numbered models June 1957 and up
I & J frames are similar except for:
3. Transitional and early I & J models (post war) 1946-1953
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1953 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.
'Pre model' clarification for I frame posting. What's a pre model?
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.
So instead of having to say, for example: "I have a gun just like a Model 36 but it's not stamped Mod 36", it was shortened to: "I have a Pre-Mod 36".
That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish what's really being discussed or for sale!
Screw count 6, 5, 4, or 3 screw (depending on the frame size) is further used to distinguish between Pre Models. There is a Pre-Model 36 (Model of 1953) 4 screw and a 3 screw.
I frames are worse; the post war Transitional I frame, Improved I frame and Model of 1953 New I frame are all pre models in a general meaning of the phrase, but ONLY the Mod 1953 in the correct meaning of the Collector term is a true PRE-MODEL. Otherwise the pre-model description is useless, it could be any form of a particular model; Pre-war model up thru 1941, Wartime production model, Transitional model (post war) ~1945-1950, or Improved model (in the case of I frame models).
The SCSW book's own description of "Pre model" Pg. 153 (3rd ed.) as used for the K and N frames conflicts, lacks consistency and creates confusion with its own briefer definition on pg. 423 and its use in regard to the post war I frames in that it lumps some I frame models together as pre-models. This creates a lack of distinguishing between them when they are actually all very different.
Why not just use name or model #?
Just using the name or # exemplifies the problem and the reason for coining the term "pre model" and others in the first place; like transitional, baby J, 5 screw, 4 screw, etc. And other terms needed even after Model #s like 4 screw, 3 screw, pinned and recessed, etc.
The Model name or number does not tell us what we all want to know when discussing these revolvers or plunking down money for them, i.e., exactly which vintage is it???
None of those terms are factory terms and none of us would be satisfied with a description that didn't include them! Would anyone be satisfied with just the model name of or pay the same for any "Model 44 Magnum", the official model name? No! We would want to know if it's a 5 screw or 4 screw?
Or just "Model 38 Chief's Special"? Heck no, we would want to know if it's a baby J, round sight, ramp sight, pre model 1953, pre model 36 4 screw, or pre model 36 3 screw? Or just "Model 36"? No we would want to know if it's a flat latch, diamond grip, pinned barrel, MIM, right? And we would not just be satisfied with the factory dash # because we all know that dash #s are sometimes left off or not always accurate.
There's no rule that anyone has to use any of these collector terms, and use of them requires a correct understanding, especially "pre model", or else they're just confusing.
I hope this proves helpful,
1. Look for big changes in the currently being revised SCSW 4th ed. regarding I & J updates. For previews see my commentaries here:
Smith & Wesson Forum - Hondo44
2. Chiefs Special as marketed and written by S&W is plural but not possessive.
3. I don't personally like the term Pre-Model . It's more often used incorrectly.
As Lee Jarrett has posted; "A Model T Ford can be called a pre model Thunderbird, but is it really?"
The definition of 'pre-model' is clearly defined in the N frame HE models from the SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153 but its use in the Glossary Pg. 423 and in the small frame HE sections is inconsistent and contradictory.
PRE MODELS: CLARIFICATION AND CONSISTENCY OF USE
N frames from SCSW, 3rd, Pg. 153:
1. Pre-war models up thru 1941
2. Wartime production models
3. Transitional models (post war) 1945-1950
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1950 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.
5. Numbered models June 1957 and up
I & J frames are similar except for:
3. Transitional and early I & J models (post war) 1946-1953
4. Pre-models: Incorporates the 1953 design improvements, but before model numbers were assigned. Some collectors will call these 'pre-models'.
'Pre model' clarification for I frame posting. What's a pre model?
In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.
So instead of having to say, for example: "I have a gun just like a Model 36 but it's not stamped Mod 36", it was shortened to: "I have a Pre-Mod 36".
That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish what's really being discussed or for sale!
Screw count 6, 5, 4, or 3 screw (depending on the frame size) is further used to distinguish between Pre Models. There is a Pre-Model 36 (Model of 1953) 4 screw and a 3 screw.
I frames are worse; the post war Transitional I frame, Improved I frame and Model of 1953 New I frame are all pre models in a general meaning of the phrase, but ONLY the Mod 1953 in the correct meaning of the Collector term is a true PRE-MODEL. Otherwise the pre-model description is useless, it could be any form of a particular model; Pre-war model up thru 1941, Wartime production model, Transitional model (post war) ~1945-1950, or Improved model (in the case of I frame models).
The SCSW book's own description of "Pre model" Pg. 153 (3rd ed.) as used for the K and N frames conflicts, lacks consistency and creates confusion with its own briefer definition on pg. 423 and its use in regard to the post war I frames in that it lumps some I frame models together as pre-models. This creates a lack of distinguishing between them when they are actually all very different.
Why not just use name or model #?
Just using the name or # exemplifies the problem and the reason for coining the term "pre model" and others in the first place; like transitional, baby J, 5 screw, 4 screw, etc. And other terms needed even after Model #s like 4 screw, 3 screw, pinned and recessed, etc.
The Model name or number does not tell us what we all want to know when discussing these revolvers or plunking down money for them, i.e., exactly which vintage is it???
None of those terms are factory terms and none of us would be satisfied with a description that didn't include them! Would anyone be satisfied with just the model name of or pay the same for any "Model 44 Magnum", the official model name? No! We would want to know if it's a 5 screw or 4 screw?
Or just "Model 38 Chief's Special"? Heck no, we would want to know if it's a baby J, round sight, ramp sight, pre model 1953, pre model 36 4 screw, or pre model 36 3 screw? Or just "Model 36"? No we would want to know if it's a flat latch, diamond grip, pinned barrel, MIM, right? And we would not just be satisfied with the factory dash # because we all know that dash #s are sometimes left off or not always accurate.
There's no rule that anyone has to use any of these collector terms, and use of them requires a correct understanding, especially "pre model", or else they're just confusing.
I hope this proves helpful,
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OP
bmcgilvray
Member
Well I know I'm confused!
Very much so. Thank you.
OLDSTER
Member
What is approximate "release date" for the 4th addition SCSW ?
Not to be contrary, but merely explaining the thought process.
Gisele Bundchen is or was the highest paid model in the world. One could say that before she began modeling, she was a pre model.
So some would argue that when she was 2 years old, she was a pre model. Others would argue that NO, she was a toddler. At age 5, some would argue that she was an adolescent, others would still say she is a pre model.
No one generally knows the exact date she became a model. You could probably send her a LETTER and request the exact date, but short of that it is generally understood that sometime in her teens 14-16 she started modeling.
So, some folks will say that before she was a teenager around 15ish she was a pre model while others prefer to use terms like toddler, pre adolescent or adolescent.
Or perhaps there are even those that would say she was only a pre model when she was a pre teen????
PS: For those that don't know who Giselle is, she is Tom Brady's wife.
PPS: The dictionary defines "pre" as previous to; before....
Gisele Bundchen is or was the highest paid model in the world. One could say that before she began modeling, she was a pre model.
So some would argue that when she was 2 years old, she was a pre model. Others would argue that NO, she was a toddler. At age 5, some would argue that she was an adolescent, others would still say she is a pre model.
No one generally knows the exact date she became a model. You could probably send her a LETTER and request the exact date, but short of that it is generally understood that sometime in her teens 14-16 she started modeling.
So, some folks will say that before she was a teenager around 15ish she was a pre model while others prefer to use terms like toddler, pre adolescent or adolescent.
Or perhaps there are even those that would say she was only a pre model when she was a pre teen????
PS: For those that don't know who Giselle is, she is Tom Brady's wife.
PPS: The dictionary defines "pre" as previous to; before....
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STORMINORMAN
Member
"So, some folks will say that before she was a teenager around 15ish she was a pre model while others prefer to use terms like toddler, pre adolescent or adolescent."
Talk about being "contradictory and inconsistent"! (Thanks, Hondo44!"
Everyone knows teen models 14-16 are most correctly described as "jail bait"!
Or were you talking about "15ish" Model 14's & Model 16's?
Cheers!
Talk about being "contradictory and inconsistent"! (Thanks, Hondo44!"
Everyone knows teen models 14-16 are most correctly described as "jail bait"!
Or were you talking about "15ish" Model 14's & Model 16's?
Cheers!
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Figured I'd add mine to the album... ser. #1668. It's got some wear, but functions flawlessly.
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