What we carried in 71, the Model 10-5

Dabney, I hear all of the " gun experts" say that the handgun is just a tool and there should not be any sentiment involved. But, like you, when you have carried and depended upon a certain piece for many years as a PO ( nearly 35 in Detroit and Miami-Dade) and it has seen you through many social encounters, some fatal some not, it is just natural to keep coming back to familiarity. Mine was a model 19 and its stainless counterparts. Pack your favorite rosco in good health.
 
There is a law of nature that if you drop a revolver (no, I have never dropped one, so I don't know how they manage to do it), that the dropped revolver will land smack on its sight, and bend or disfigure or break it.

This law of nature is over ridden by the law of nature that says that a dropped gun with newly installed, finely figured, finger grooved combat grips will always land on it's butt! (Ask me how I know this fact!)
 
Dropped revolvers? Assisting in a Detroit PD SW, jumped a fence and my 19 popped out of its Jordan holster, landing in a snow bank. Very empty feeling to arrive at the door and find that your holster is empty. Retrieved said revolver, only to find later that the barrel was packed with snow. Often wondered if it would have worked.
 
First night on training patrol as I exited the passsener side the seat belt popped the snap on my Dropbox and the snap on my highway patrol swivel holster. As I walk up to the house I realize my model 28 is not there and that my backup ammunition is not there. My senior training deputy shook his head and said "you are not the first and you won't be the last to have that happen. But it is something you should never have happen a second time." And it never did.


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dscampbell, you've raised an interesting point. All equipment (firearms, holsters, ammo, whatever) has to be fully tested prior to issuance to line officers. Here is a story which I took out of my book, Practical Handgun Training. It's the simplest way to explain the logic of testing equipment prior to issuance and what can happen it that testing is not done! (note: FTS = Firearms and Tactics Section)

Rich

When accepting a piece of equipment for testing we required that the vendor sign off on a receipt that read the item would be tested "to destruction." In truth, we rarely went that far with a piece of test gear, but with that proviso the vendor had no complaints should we damage their product during the testing process. And test we did. Before putting any equipment out in the field the FTS would first attempt to place samples with the patrol force. Keep in mind, when we made an error, that error was multiplied over thirty thousand times! None the less, sometimes mistakes were made.

One example of the consequences of an error stands out in my mind. For a period of time department members were authorized to wear black leather jackets. Although the department members liked the jacket, the political hierarchy of the department was concerned over image and decided a more benign look was appropriate. Thus a modern, blue nylon insulated jacket was procured and put out on the street. What could possibly go wrong with that?

During this period reports started to come in from officers in the field indicating they were finding their revolvers (yes, it was a long time ago…) cocked in their holsters. Understand, during this time in the department's history, officers wore a very old holster design which had an open top, their revolvers being kept in place by an internal leather piece pushed aside by the shooters' thumb as they withdrew the handgun.

Remarkably, few if any revolvers were snatched from our officers possession when this holster was in use.

Ranking members of the department, safe behind their "bullet-proof" desks and seeing these reports of cocked handguns in holsters come in, dismissed them as somehow being the fault of the patrol officers nervously toying with their revolvers hammers. But the reports continued, and increased, from all parts of the city. Something was going on.

Well, the jackets had been put out without any prior testing (issuing articles of clothing were the responsibility of the Equipment Section, not the FTS!). It turned out that the zipper tabs on the new jackets had a large hole in them. From time to time a tab would find itself atop the open holsters the officers wore and, on occasion, the hole in the tab would permit the hammer spur to enter and catch. When the officer jerked on his jacket, their revolver's hammer would sometimes become cocked!

The fix was to order thirty plus thousand little plastic snaps to go through the holes in the zipper tabs and make sure newly ordered jackets had modified zippers. The point of this story is, there was a reason the FTS found the thorough testing of equipment prior to general issue to be so important. And why, as a firearms user or instructor, you should not be overly quick to adopt some newly introduced firearm or piece of equipment until such time as you can be assured that all the kinks have been worked out!
 
Rich, that is a great lesson. I think that so many of today's 'bean counters' look at equipment of all sorts, and go for low bids, without any idea of the consequences of their decisions on working folks out in the real world. The same goes not just in the police world, but for firefighters, EMMS teams, the street departments and all other sorts of professions. You should hear the stories that my son shares with me about the equipment that he is issued at the telephone company.

The big difference with the police and perhaps firefighters, though, is that when their equipment fails, or is flawed, people, and sometimes good people can die.

I want to join in the thanks that many others here on this thread have extended to you and StakeOut, and the many other folks who have shared their collective knowledge and wisdom, gained over many years of working with the police and public safety profession.
 
dscampbell, you've raised an interesting point. All equipment (firearms, holsters, ammo, whatever) has to be fully tested prior to issuance to line officers. Here is a story which I took out of my book, Practical Handgun Training. It's the simplest way to explain the logic of testing equipment prior to issuance and what can happen it that testing is not done! (note: FTS = Firearms and Tactics Section)

Rich[/I]

I can't imagine how difficult the logistics of equipping 30000 police officers could be. Add to that dealing with cops and you have 30000 experts with 30000 differing opinions as to how to do things and 30000 different reasons why they shouldn't have to comply with any decisions about anything!
 
To me,an entire 20 year career is like a 20 year continuing education course at a university.
From the first day you put on the uniform to the last day you wear it the learning process never stops.

StakeOut, I couldn't agree more. That's one reason why I have kept on with my teaching job after retiring from active law enforcement. Hoping to at least start a few young folks off on the right foot. I stay very much in touch with those still working in the field. There have been so many technological changes in the last twenty years, that police work SEEMS to have changed. But that is a misconception, I believe. The job is the same as it has always been... Only the tools available have changed. I think that folks like you have helped prepare at least some of today's young folks for police work. Thanks again.
 
The year prior to my entry into LE (71), a shooting had taken place in Columbus involving one of our officers. After I started, the shooting story was still being widely discussed by senior officers, one of several who were mentors to me then. The details of it are still fresh with me as it seems nowadays, I remember things of the past better than "what happened yesterday". As in all small cities in the US, with a population of 250,000+, there are bound to be officer-involved shootings. Some cities more, some less (read between the lines), and I wish that it wasn't so, but it is. This particular shooting was unique to the original post here as it involved the use of the Model 10-5 by the officer. It goes like this;
One afternoon one of our officers on patrol received a routine "see the party" call, or 10-48 using then police radio terminology. This was a very routine call that officers got (still do) about seeing the citizen about some subject matter, non-violent in nature. After receiving the call from the Radio Room, the officer responded and went 10-97 several minutes later. This was in 1970 and under those rules of the game, I hasten to remind the reader. The officer walked up to the front door of the residence and knocked. The door opened and he was met by a middle-age female that had the "look" of very hard living about her. She asked the officer to step inside. I also need to mention that the officer was without a walkie-talkie. We didn't have those until years later. After getting inside the female starts crying and telling the officer about her "abusive" and "violent" husband. The officer would later state that at that moment he started getting some dreadful premonition that something awful was about to happen and it did! During the woman's rant an "explosion" occurred in the back-part area of the house. That would later turn out to be the husband shooting out the bedroom window from inside the house with a pump 12-gauge shotgun. The female screamed and jumped behind the officer, who was still standing inside the front door (door closed). The officers ears were ringing from the shotgun blast inside a confined area, greatly magnified. The officer drew his service revolver, a PD-issued Smith & Wesson Model 10-5, stoked with six-rounds of the old .38 Police Load (158-gr. LRN standard factory loading specs). The officer later told investigators he could hear an evil laugh coming from the man as he racked the slide back and ejected the spent for a fresh round. The officer stated that he could hear the male walking down the hall, in his direction! No cover anywhere in sight, the officer assumed his best shooting stance, Model 10 up and ready. The female, meanwhile, was going mentally ballistic, further distracting the officer from his would-be killer. He forced himself to concentrate on the situation at hand as the male rounded the corner into the living room where both officer and female were and started bringing that shotgun up to bear. The officer, now in a two-handed weaver combat stance, quickly fired two .38 rounds straight into the males cranium, forehead area. He dropped instant from instant brain-scramble from those .38 rounds. All of this, from the time the officer was ask to come inside, to the actual shooting itself was inside 30-seconds. The officer would finish out his career without anymore shootings to deal with. A deeply religious man, considered top drawer material by all who knew him. But that one call, on that particular day, that started out routine but turned deadly. Just a reminder, for all who serve, to always be vigilant no matter what! Since this particular officer involved shooting involved the Model 10-5, I thought the subject matter might be interesting to who who have served and those still on the job. Whether it was 1970 or 2016 the principal of "always" having your guard up is imperative to our boys and girls in uniform. I love them all, GOD help me, I do!

David
 
Thanks dabney that is very much something that will happen again and again, and the sort of event that officers must always be aware may happen, and will happen, but we are never going to know exactly when it will happen.
 
When I started in '83 we were issued the S&W 681, 158 JSP ammo, G&G level2 holster and 12rd loop loader. We were not allowed to use speed loaders so I kept one in my right front pocket so the desk jockeys would not see it and have kittens. When I transferred to B Trop in '86 there were factors in play in which the brass admitted we might need more ammo so most people carried an extra 12 round loader in the back. I opted for an 18 rd loader and a single speedloader in front of my holster. Of course the unauthorized M1 Carbine in the trunk and the Detective Special on my ankle also contributed to the warm and fuzzy feeling.
 
dabney,I believe it was that officer's marksmanship and training that got him safely home that day and not that it was a Model 10-5 loaded with 158gr LRD.The two to the head put him right down whereas two to the chest mostly would have not put the assailant down quickly enough to prevent return fire.

Those few seconds between hearing the shotgun slide racked and then seeing the person with it in their hands probably caused a bit of weakness in the knees and hand tremor.

Remember this:
People that see blood and violence on a daily bases in the environment where they reside are less likely to go into shock when shot and more likely to still continue the fight.

Your job as a LEO is to use as much force as needed to put the armed perp in a position where he can not retaliate against you or persons you are protecting from harm.

Grand Jury question,"Officer,why did you shoot the man 6 times?"
Officer answered,"That's all my gun holds,it was necessary to stop the crime from continuing".
 
First night on training patrol as I exited the passsener side the seat belt popped the snap on my Dropbox and the snap on my highway patrol swivel holster. As I walk up to the house I realize my model 28 is not there and that my backup ammunition is not there. My senior training deputy shook his head and said "you are not the first and you won't be the last to have that happen. But it is something you should never have happen a second time." And it never did.


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I had a similar situation in about '77 while assisting a deputy in a pursuit of a stolen vehicle. We were on the highway and the suspects suddenly pulled over and took leg bail. The deputy was chasing one, and I had ordered the other on the ground with my PA as I exited the vehicle. He went prone on the highway and I got out of the unit in a hurry. I was wearing my old Bianchi front-break Berns and Martin type holster, and as I wrenched myself around the door the strap popped open and the gun slid out of my holster onto the asphalt in front of the prone suspect. Luckily, I was a bit faster than him and retrieved it as he started to move towards it.

As soon as I found a S&W 19 and a better holster, the Bianchi and the M28 went away. No fault of the gun, but the holster sure wasn't as secure as I would have liked.
 
My Model 10-6 and I parted company the day I retired.A nice young firearms instructor at the NYPD Outdoor Range Rodman's Neck promised it a good home.
In retirement I had a NYC carry permit that I kept until I took a job in Korea,teaching at a university.I stayed there for 20 years,feeling naked without the added weight inside my belt to the left of my right hip.

On returning stateside 2 years ago I chose Texas as my home for obvious reasons and schooling for my teenage son.

I have an S&W PC 7 shot 686 and a Ruger SR22 for carrying.The SR22 gets the call when it's hot here(almost all year),and is in my right pocket without holster.

My favorite revolver is a 4" Model 25-5 that shoots 4 leaf clovers at 10 yards in these 73 year old hands.I make it a point to get to my indoor club 2X a week.

I don't buy factory ammo.Every round for defense or paper is hand loaded one at a time with a hand press.
 
I had a similar situation in about '77 while assisting a deputy in a pursuit of a stolen vehicle. We were on the highway and the suspects suddenly pulled over and took leg bail. The deputy was chasing one, and I had ordered the other on the ground with my PA as I exited the vehicle. He went prone on the highway and I got out of the unit in a hurry. I was wearing my old Bianchi front-break Berns and Martin type holster, and as I wrenched myself around the door the strap popped open and the gun slid out of my holster onto the asphalt in front of the prone suspect. Luckily, I was a bit faster than him and retrieved it as he started to move towards it.



As soon as I found a S&W 19 and a better holster, the Bianchi and the M28 went away. No fault of the gun, but the holster sure wasn't as secure as I would have liked.



I was permitted to change to a break front style for my mod 28 6" until the Sheriff issued 4" model 66 with Jordan style. But never carried a swivel highway patrol holster again.
 
dabney,I believe it was that officer's marksmanship and training that got him safely home that day and not that it was a Model 10-5 loaded with 158gr LRD.The two to the head put him right down whereas two to the chest mostly would have not put the assailant down quickly enough to prevent return fire.

Shot placement trumps everything else. An idea that sometimes gets lost in the noise when we start talking defensive handguns.
 
dscampbell, you've raised an interesting point. All equipment (firearms, holsters, ammo, whatever) has to be fully tested prior to issuance to line officers. Here is a story which I took out of my book, Practical Handgun Training. It's the simplest way to explain the logic of testing equipment prior to issuance and what can happen it that testing is not done! (note: FTS = Firearms and Tactics Section)

Rich

Rich, thank you for this post! I would have never known about your book otherwise! I just ordered it from Amazon!

I love threads like this!! I thoroughly enjoyed "Jim Cirillo - Tales of the Stakeout Squad" and look forward to reading Rich's book!

Kind of off topic... but if you guys on here can recommend other books like these... please advise!! (I enjoy and have a few of Massad Ayoob's books as well)

EDIT: I have been reading a few of the available pages on Amazon "Look inside this book" I am even more excited to receive it now! I love how Rich tells stories of actual events to illustrate the point he is teaching.


EDIT EDIT: (Sharing how I fell in love with S&W revolvers)
I got this close --> <-- to having a career in law enforcement back in California in the early 1980's. I went through a reserve officers academy offered through a local community college, received my California POST certificate in 1982.

At the time, I was devouring all the Joseph Wambaugh books in print. :cool:

I wanted full time so I didn't even bother seeking a reserve position and instead I was testing with both the California Highway Patrol and the San Mateo County CA Sheriff's office (passed the 4+ hour written exams and was moving on to the orals for both. I really wanted to get on with the CHP and go through the CHP academy as it was one of the best in CA at that time, not to mention that 'CHiPs' was THE TV show at the time ;) ).

Unfortunately for me a nagging knee injury from high school would not clear up even after two surgeries. While working to get in shape for the eventual physical tests I again injured it... this time beyond reasonable repair, I was unable to run or even slow jog (a condition that I have to this day), and so ended my dream of being a LEO.

I had a Model 19-4 4 inch S&W with beautiful target stocks and that beautiful deep blue that other blue guns couldn't match that I used for the Firearms Qualifications back then (the qual's were done at the San Francisco Airport Police range, it was very cool as they had partially stripped big 727's/747's that the SF Airport PD used for training parked right next to the range). It was then I fell in love with the Model 19 as well as all the others since these were the guns all the LEO's carried then... Model 10's, 13's, 15's, 66's, 27's, 28's 36's... well you get the idea. :)

I was a newbie to guns at the time but I clearly remember thinking how cool my Model 19 was because it had the recessed cylinder, adjustable sights and large wood stocks (Target stocks I later learned). The revolvers my buddies in class used did not have all the cool stuff my Model 19 had, not to mention mine was a .357 Magnum and mine had that cool looking 3/4 barrel lug!! (thinking back now it was mostly Model 10's with both the pencil and heavy barrels the other guys were using). I only paid $250 for it back then, sold it for the same once the LEO dream was gone.. wish I had it today. I have several S&W revolvers... but wish I had THAT particular gun today.

A big THANK YOU to all the brave men and women that have served and are currently serving as LEO's!! And thank you for sharing your experiences here on the forums!
 
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