What we carried in 71, the Model 10-5

[StakeOut]

Those terrible JayPee ammo pouches that the ammo refused to fall out of.

I had the Pencil Barrel DS with the exposed ejector rod


Wow,I completely forgot about those 18 round white boxes.I think we also got the 158gr LSWC rounds in those boxes too.

I think in 1966 the outdoor range had Peters LRN in red,white and blue 50 round boxes with a warning on the box?
The next visit to the range they had yellow box WW or green box Remington.

Keep posting guys,I'm feeling a bit like it's the 60s and 70s again.

RichCapeCod said:
"When the dept was phasing out the 3" "policewoman's" revolver I bought one. Cost was, if memory serves, around $77 bucks from the Equipment Section."

Did you get the purse with the built in holster too

I'll give you a new crisp Franklin for it with no haggling

Here's an NYPD ca 1940 photo with 4 police women.

What's the 2nd from the left woman holding?

 

[adwjc]

RichCapeCod and StakeOut, obviously you know that the influence of the NYPD was felt far and wide, but never more deeply than around the region.

In Jersey City, we found that many of the policies and procedures accepted as gospel, were taken from yours, adapted to NJ law and used. When I arrived on the job, we too had woman as "Special Investigators," assigned within units of the Detective Division, none in uniform.

Much of the uniform, leather gear and handgun and ammo choices were "borrowed from NYPD. Even the range officers and academy staff utilized the khakis you guys used. Since I had gone to school in NYC, none of this seemed unusual to me. But as time went on I realized the greater number of NJ departments that took their lead from the NJSP or Newark, the other two largest departments in NJ.

All of that changed in the late 1970s, when as the old timers said "they are turning this job into the post office" (sorry USPS). Height and weight requirements went out the window in NJ Civil Service testing and JCPD had its first class that included woman and smaller men in 1979. The entry level title became "police officer" instead of "patrolman."

 

[OIF2]

Gotta love the NYPD. Tried to sign up in '82 after Bill Allard talked me into joining but you had to be a NY state resident then. I went to LA, joined the LAPD instead and felt a little better after my first February of 80 degree weather. The uniforms were pretty cool, too.
Bob

My bud Bill Allard, NYPD SOU '68-'73. A great cop and a phenominal pistol shot

 

[snowman.45]

Man, it's good to see some of the cops the rest of us tried to model ourselves after in here. I came on in 1977 and retired in 2014, and I remember the accounts of the SOU we often read about. I was lucky in that I worked in the San Joaquin Valley of California in a small department. We were able to carry .357 magnum, and my first duty gun was an S&W 28 4".

While in L.A. for a training course in about 1978, I decided to see what LAPD was like and went on a ride along. At the time, I had a S&W 2.5" 19. I remember the Sergeant I rode with was amazed that I had a .357 revolver loaded with .357 ammunition and capable of single-action fire. They were carrying the old .38s with the lead .38 round nose bullets at the time.

I carried a lot of Chief Specials, Detective Specials and 1911s off duty and when working plain clothes. Like some have said, I would love to be able to have those old revolvers back today.

While some believe that we were at a tactical disadvantage with the revolvers, as a firearms instructor for many of my years I can say that I truly believe there were many fewer misses and many more "good" shots under pressure then than now. I don't remember feeling under-armed with 6 rounds in the gun and an additional 12 rounds on the belt.

I got used to carrying autos, and had a lot of years carrying S&W 645/4506s, Sigs and Glocks, but for some reason, I feel a lot more nostalgic about the old revolver days. I just had my old retired guys qualification yesterday. Out of the five guns I qualified with, there were still two J-frames. I think there always will be.

 

[StakeOut]

Come on guys,you're making me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Wow,Bill Allard looks young in that posted photo.

He's probably near 80 now?

Stocky guys like Bill Allard and Jimmy Cirillo seemed to be the better marksman.
Tall thin drips of water like me were always watching them in awe

 

[mj2008]

Stakeout and RichCapecod you both don't appear to be fond of the Colt DS. Stakeout what was so awful about the Colt you bought? When I got on Colt's werent an option. I picked the Smith Centennial for off duty. Many years later a retired detective gave me his unshrouded ejector rod Colt DS. I like it a lot. Trigger is very smooth with very little stacking. Both the Colt and my Centennial are still carried. Oh, when I got on a 3" S&W was an option for your duty gun. It was supposed to be a more compact duty gun for the female officers but at least a couple of the guys selected it also.

 

[Muley Gil]

"What's the 2nd from the left woman holding?"

Looks like an early Colt Woodsman .22 LR.

 

[StakeOut]

Stakeout and RichCapecod you both don't appear to be fond of the Colt DS. Stakeout what was so awful about the Colt you bought?

The trigger was awful in every way imaginable.

These days I read that police weapons have a 12lb trigger pull.

That's way to much to make accurate shots = more misses and more shots that need to be fired.

My Model 10-6 was a smooth 7lbs DA and crisp 3lbs SA.

I like guns with external hammers I can cock.

 

[RichCapeCod]

Stakeout and RichCapecod you both don't appear to be fond of the Colt DS. Stakeout what was so awful about the Colt you bought? .....

It's not so much that I'm not fond of the Colt DS but it's more that the S&W triggers are just so much better. I never felt "under-gunned" when carrying my DS and, in fact, the one time I had to use a handgun in the line of duty was with my Colt DS (it's a long story...).

Keep in mind that once mastered, a S&W double-action revolver can be fired very accurately, indeed, I would argue more accurately, than in single-action mode. When firing at 25 yards on bullseye targets I fire all strings of fire, slow, timed and rapid, using only the handgun's double-action. For one thing, I find not having to move my shooting hand thumb up and over the handgun's hammer keeps my grip more consistent.

Here's a video of Jerry Misculek hitting a target at a 1,000 yards with a 9mm S&W revolver. Note, he is firing his handgun DOUBLE-ACTION!!

Rich

 

[mj2008]

I respect you two guys opinions. I think the older Smiths have a better trigger than the newer guns. I recently purchased a 327PC. IT has a performance center tuned action. It's good. But my two model 19's are better. That said I think Colts have a good trigger. Different but still good. At least I think so. I think the Smiths are more sturdy. My Colts action went out of timing and had to be reset. I've never had that with any of my Smiths. As for 12 pound triggers. Sometimes they are 12 pounds. Sometimes a bit more. They suck. It does make it harder to shoot. accurately. When I switched over to a Glock they changed it the first time to 8 pounds. It wasn't bad. Then they put the new improved 12 pound trigger. Yuck. Theres probably a few reasons of why today they are having so many shots fired and most of the rounds not hitting the perp. One of the reasons could be because of those heavy triggers.

 

[LT SCOTT 14]

I have read a great thread about the 10-5s.

In 1989 was hired in my area as a Deputy Marshal. Our Dept was small, mostly rural patrol. Started to attend our LEO Academy in 1990.
Our first classes were laws, hand to hand defense, arrest procedures.
Next classes were Firearms so I needed one.

Talked to our Town Marshal(Chief), he didn't have a firearm, but suggested a M10 as a personal purchase.

He then returned 2 basket case M66s to S&W to attempt a rebuild.

My M10 cost a whole $100, from a local Gunstore (friend of Chiefs), and they had a couple spare duty rigs, with holsters to fit the M10-5/ Thin Barrels. The Dept had boxes and boxes of 38 LRN given to me for practice. (I think it was 600rds, other guys had 200rds.) They gave me speedloaders, cuffs, and a cleaning kit.

I shot the practice range all the time. The RO even mentioned NYPD and told me their procedures. Qualification was a breeze. M10 was a workhorse.

Had that M-10 in a duty rig for about the first "6 months on the job." I was later issued a brand new M66, and a box of Federal 125gr HPs.

Actually thought about selling the M-10, it was looking rough. Same gunshop sent it to S&W, went through springs, reblued, and replaced the pushrod. Was slightly off, but never really tied the gun up. The PD actually paid the tab, and my M10-5/ 4in, SQ grip, looks like a 1974 model again

Got my $ worth, saved me on a couple of calls, still have it. The M66's got traded for Glock22's. Ok duty guns, but I think a step down from the 357 Mag. It rests with 2 speedloaders in my nightstand, and a 3 cell Maglite. Ready to protect if needed.

Some of the youngsters who carry the Glocks, M&P's, and others use to snicker at the old timer six-gun toting Sr.Officers. We used leather, and scores were very good, even after 15-20 yrs working. Some even asked if our ammo was as old as the guns? I would tell them to show me your targets when you are done. I will show you mine with old ammo top scores.

Good luck with your M10-5. Best buy in the market.

 

[mj2008]

When everyone was switching over to 9's a lot of the guys were selling there old duty guns for less than $50. Now a lot of those revolvers were in awful shape. But not all of them. I know semi's out sell revolvers by quite a bit but I think shooting enthusiasts are looking at revolvers again. It might be a minority but some people who go on the gun forums and other sites I think are interested in these old guns like the model 10. They have something that you just don't get it from a plastic gun. The older revolvers are like a good watch. There's also some nice newer revolvers made by Smith and Ruger(even Kimber). I don't think revolvers are going away any time soon.

 

[les.b]

I became a law enforcement officer in 1975. I think that was a long time ago, but some of you guys make me feel like a rookie. When I started, my department had just adopted the model 66. I was issued a 4" 66 (no dash) when I started. Later, when I went to plainclothes duties, I was issued a 2 1/2" 66 ( no dash). I still have both. When we went to the Glock in the 1990s, we were allowed to buy our 66s for what Glock offered in trade. I still have both, and would not part with either.



When I was carrying these guns, I used an aluminum Tyler t grip on both. I have temporarily borrowed them to use on a couple of other guns right now. The 4" had the target stocks removed when I got it, I liked the model 10 stocks much better, when combined with the t grip.




At the same time, I was firearms instructor and armorer at my department, and taught adjunct classes in firearms at our local college, which had recently started a criminal justice program. I am now retired from law enforcement , but still teach at that college.

At school, I used model 10 HBs for demonstration, and for the students to shoot in class. They are, and remain, wonderful firearms, and although they have had many thousands of rounds through them, still function and shoot flawlessly.

I want to thank all of the forum members who have written on this thread. I have "liked" all of them. They have brought back memories of days past that are valuable, and evoke a simpler and better era.

 

[Doug M.]

The job is just a reflection of society in general. These days the people coming on the job are from the "everyone gets a trophy", "no bullying", "everyone is special just because you are here" generation. Most have never been in a fight. For the most part, their work ethic leaves a lot to be desired. I think it's one of the reasons why there are so many bad police shootings these days. Of course police are just a cross section of society and the problems we have are being experienced, on one level or another, by all sectors of life in this country.

*
There is a perception of bad shootings, but it is simply not accurate. The reckless disregard for the truth engaged in by certain pressure groups for political reasons, and the similar constant repetition of the same garbage by media outlets, has resulted in that perception. Actual uses of deadly force are rare, and unlawful uses of deadly force are many times more rare. American LE could kill 40,000 offenders a year without violating Constitutional standards.

 

[StakeOut]

"What's the 2nd from the left woman holding?"

Looks like an early Colt Woodsman .22 LR.

At first glance I thought it was a piece of wood or a 22 like you suggest.

During my early years the NYPD had what was called the "Rubber Gun Squad".In the squad were mostly alcoholics and domestic abusers that had their guns taken away.

Also in the picture I noticed the uniform dark blue shirts worn by the patrolman of the period.I wore this shirt until a light blue off the rack type replaced it.This shirt was a dry clean type that had removable brass buttons.A real pain in the butt.

 

[cmj8591]

*
There is a perception of bad shootings, but it is simply not accurate. The reckless disregard for the truth engaged in by certain pressure groups for political reasons, and the similar constant repetition of the same garbage by media outlets, has resulted in that perception. Actual uses of deadly force are rare, and unlawful uses of deadly force are many times more rare. American LE could kill 40,000 offenders a year without violating Constitutional standards.

I agree with you to an extent but what I'm talking about is the obviously bad shoots. And there are some very bad shoots. Anyone who did the job for any amount of time can relate lots of stories where we COULD have shot someone and been justified but but we went hands on and resolved the situation with a night stick or a Kel light or a good choke hold. Yes, we might have taken a shot to the head or risked getting cut but thought of it as just an occupational hazard. I watch a lot of new officers interact and it's been my observation that the tendency is to depend on a taser or a side arm to resolve a situation that would have been dealt with differently in an earlier time. Like I said, these are the kids who have never been in a schoolyard or bar room fight so don't know that they probably won't die if they get a punch in the face. Add to that being trained by a system that places more importance on not offending anyone than getting results and you have young officers who don't have the right tools to deal with resistant people. The result is a disproportionate application of deadly force.

 

[StakeOut]

Logic and common sense usually rules the day.

Going home in the same physical condition with no holes in yourself the same way you went to work should be #1 on every law enforcement officers priority list.

Always wear your vest.

You will be second guessed no matter what action you take and if you fire your weapon or don't fire it.

Self preservation is a very strong emotion.

Once you determine you cannot resolve a situation with words,your physical strength ability or other normally non lethal force,often within a few seconds of contact with a subject or subjects,do what you need to do to survive.

After the occurrence if you are still alive make "NO" statements unless it's through your competent experienced attorney who specializes in criminal law.

Loose Lips Sink Ships

Absolutely do not make any statements to the press.

 

[cmj8591]

In the interest of sticking with the theme of this thread; I was issued this in 1982 along with a box of S&W 158 grain, lead round nose 38 specials, which I still have. I shot it in the academy and carried it until the first day my probation ended when I swapped it for a Model 19 and 125 Federal JHP's.

 

[StakeOut]

You are fortunate in that your department allowed a gun with adjustable sights.

The NYPD forbid them.

I would have loved to have carried a 19-2 or 19-3 back in the day.

To correct my Model 10-6 shooting a bit low I had a blade permanently attached that was similar but thicker than the blade in an S&W ajustable rear sight.

 

[les.b]

StakeOut: one can argue either side of that adjustable sight question. As you probably saw above, my 66s had adjustable sights. And they were great for most officers. But I was the department armorer, and I was constantly replacing blades in the sights of department officers. They would find some way to break or bend or damage in some way those relatively fragile sights. There is a law of nature that if you drop a revolver (no, I have never dropped one, so I don't know how they manage to do it), that the dropped revolver will land smack on its sight, and bend or disfigure or break it. Raunching up against the seat belt do-dad in the patrol car. Rolling around in a fight. Seems like adjustable sights are sometimes a liability. But the flip side is that they allow adjustment for individual guns and shooters and cartridge combinations. Then you had the officers who were always convinced that the "sights were off", mostly because they couldn't admit that they were just poor marksmen.

Just a thought: at the distances that most police shootings take place, probably not a big deal.