RDub
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Hello
Well what started out as a simple request from a friend to load a box of ammo, turned into a quest, then evolved into a project.
I was handed some .38 +P brass and was asked to duplicate the 125gr JHP. So I said sure… But then I had to think if I really knew by definition what a 125gr +P round really was. I don't use this round for anything, and haven't since my LE days back in the '70's.
So I sat down with some manuals and did some research and came away somewhat confused..
Maybe if I could shoot and chronograph some factory ammo, I could get a better idea about what they do anyway.. A buddy of mine had some recently purchased +P ammo and didn't mind donating to research, and I found some Ultimate Defender rounds at the local Sportsman's. Plus I had six rounds of R-P 125gr JHP +P that I've been hanging onto since the '70's for what I don't really know, so they were sacrificed also. I was given some Federal 129gr +P's so I thought why not..
After gathering all the factory ammo, I did a pull-down of them all, to see what was inside, and then shot them at the range. They were shot out of a 4" 686 at 25 yards, and at 15 yard with a 2½" 66. Guns were resting on a Caldwell Pistol Rest. Velocity data was taken with an Oehler Model 33. Skyscreens centered 10' from muzzle. You can check that out here;
38 Special Remington UMC 125gr JHP +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Winchester USA 125gr JHP +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Federal 129gr Hydra-Shok +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Remington 125gr. JHP Ultimate Defense +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
It's a small sampling, but that's what I could come up with.
The Ultimate Defense rounds were quite 'snappy'.. much more than the other ammo, which I thought were pretty mild.
Even with the factory loads, there was quite a difference in velocity between the Ultimate Defense and the R-P UMC/Win USA rounds. Both are considered +P ammo, So which one of these is the 18K CUP load?
Interesting, that the '70's vintage ammo outperformed the Rem-UMC and Win USA rounds.
Not terribly impressed with the Federal load..
After looking all that over, it was time to throw some handloads together and see how that pans out. I compiled all the data from all the manuals I have and put it on an Excel doc. Interesting how the opinions vary..
We can see the powders that are listed most, and the ones that are loners..
On the far right, just for kicks, I included a column for the notorious and infamous Speer #8 manual.
I thought it was interesting to compile all the Speer 125gr JHP data from #8 to the present edition #14. Also made a Hornady data comparison with the editions I had.
Both, at one time in the past, took their data and retreated to a corner and sat down for a while.. Then later came back out and got with the program. Interesting how the data has evolved.
Note that Unique is the only powder to be used in all Speer manuals.
So I assembled some ammo and went to the range. I had some Magtech 125gr. JHP's and some winchester brass. WSP primers were uses except where noted otherwise. Bullets were seated to the cannalure and crimped in.
Here is the first go-round.. It was kind of cold that day.. Southern Oregon weather is quite fickle.. We never know what we are going to get.
Well everybody grouped pretty well with the exception of 3N37, which wanted no part of this exercise.. Power Pistol at 7.0grs. was so-so.,
5.0grs of Bullseye produced the smallest ES (extreme velocity spread) of all loads tested.
Speer and Alliant both list 6.0grs of Unique as a +P load, where Lyman lists 6.0grs as a non +P load. 6.0grs matched up with the WinUSA/UMC factory loads.
It's interesting that IMR dropped 800-X from their .38 and .357 load data. That's a shame, as 800-X produced one of the best loads here, and produced the highest velocity so far. More than likely IMR's decision to drop 800-X stems around its inability to meter well in powder measures. But if one understands that each charge must be checked and/or adjusted individually, 800-X can produce some great loads. The loads I use it for, I load in smaller quantities.
Anyway, Hornady and Speer were the only ones to think enough of 800-X to include it in their data.
I took liberty with BE-86 in order to do a side by side with CFE Pistol, each shooting 6.4grs. You can see how that turned out. I'll shoot the listed load of 6.1grs. later.
Loaded up some more, this time opening the throttle a bit… and shooting the max Sierra loads, plus experiment with WSPM primers, which sometimes can settle large ES's down in cooler weather. Not the case with Unique this time.
Ken Waters in his Pets Loads says 6.5grs of Herco is max with this weight bullet. Ken actually measures case head expansion to determine pressure. So I tried that load with a WSPM primer. Herco is another powder where mag primers can help.
Ken Waters also believed 6.3grs of Unique to be max with this bullet, so I loaded that up with a WSPM primer. And then, loaded the Sierra max load of 6.7grs with a WSPM primer.
Only Lyman and IMR lists SR4756 currently, and Lyman hasn't updated their .38 Special data very much since the 46th edition. Funny that Lyman lists 6.3grs as a non +P load while IMR lists 6.1 as a +P load. So I experimented with 7.0grs. That put it right in there with everybody else.
I have found that SR4756 along with SR7625 to be very temperature sensitive. These do well in warm weather, but when it gets cold they stop performing as well, especially when pressures are held low. That might be why 4756 isn't used in other manuals for this application.
Sierra, in their data, makes no mention of pressure or any load being (+P). 9.4grs of Blue Dot really took off with the mag primer. The mag primer worked in getting the ES down with Blue Dot and N350 also.
I wanted to see if the factory powder in the Ultimate Defense load was similar to Power Pistol, so I loaded up with 6.3grs… Not quite..
Alcan 7 is a powder I've had a quantity of since the '70s, so I'm always looking for ways to use it up..
The final trip to the range included HS-6 and AA#5 that I had not tried yet. Plus another load of SR4756 and Power Pistol to see where they landed. And the Alliant listed load of 6.1grs. of BE-86.
Note that SR4756 and Power Pistol track together closely.
Here is a graph which provides a birds-eye view of the whole thing;
The loads that came closest to the advertised 945 fps from a 4" vented test barrel were;
5.8 231
6.1 BE-86
7.0 Longshot
8.5 AL-7
And the Ultimate Defense round.
So.. What should we think of all this..?
It has been my belief that the factories will do the research; blend a powder to provide the fastest, most accurate factory load, staying within a specified pressure level. In other words, if one makes a load that has a higher velocity than a factory load of the same type, then the higher velocity is achieved at the expense of excessive pressure.
If this is still true here, then only the starting loads should be considered +P loads given the factory examples.
Or… The loading manuals have it right, and the factories are playing it safe.
I can say with reasonable certainty that the max Sierra loads, 6.8grs. Unique, and 9.4grs. Blue Dot, were much hotter than any other load shot including the Ultimate Defense factory load.
Well still don't know what the answers are, but I had fun doing this anyway.. I hope it proves useful.
What did I load those empties with?.. 7.0grs. Longshot and called it good.
Well what started out as a simple request from a friend to load a box of ammo, turned into a quest, then evolved into a project.
I was handed some .38 +P brass and was asked to duplicate the 125gr JHP. So I said sure… But then I had to think if I really knew by definition what a 125gr +P round really was. I don't use this round for anything, and haven't since my LE days back in the '70's.
So I sat down with some manuals and did some research and came away somewhat confused..
Maybe if I could shoot and chronograph some factory ammo, I could get a better idea about what they do anyway.. A buddy of mine had some recently purchased +P ammo and didn't mind donating to research, and I found some Ultimate Defender rounds at the local Sportsman's. Plus I had six rounds of R-P 125gr JHP +P that I've been hanging onto since the '70's for what I don't really know, so they were sacrificed also. I was given some Federal 129gr +P's so I thought why not..
After gathering all the factory ammo, I did a pull-down of them all, to see what was inside, and then shot them at the range. They were shot out of a 4" 686 at 25 yards, and at 15 yard with a 2½" 66. Guns were resting on a Caldwell Pistol Rest. Velocity data was taken with an Oehler Model 33. Skyscreens centered 10' from muzzle. You can check that out here;
38 Special Remington UMC 125gr JHP +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Winchester USA 125gr JHP +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Federal 129gr Hydra-Shok +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
38 Special Remington 125gr. JHP Ultimate Defense +P Pulldown - 10mm-firearms.com
It's a small sampling, but that's what I could come up with.
The Ultimate Defense rounds were quite 'snappy'.. much more than the other ammo, which I thought were pretty mild.
Even with the factory loads, there was quite a difference in velocity between the Ultimate Defense and the R-P UMC/Win USA rounds. Both are considered +P ammo, So which one of these is the 18K CUP load?
Interesting, that the '70's vintage ammo outperformed the Rem-UMC and Win USA rounds.
Not terribly impressed with the Federal load..
After looking all that over, it was time to throw some handloads together and see how that pans out. I compiled all the data from all the manuals I have and put it on an Excel doc. Interesting how the opinions vary..
We can see the powders that are listed most, and the ones that are loners..
On the far right, just for kicks, I included a column for the notorious and infamous Speer #8 manual.
I thought it was interesting to compile all the Speer 125gr JHP data from #8 to the present edition #14. Also made a Hornady data comparison with the editions I had.
Both, at one time in the past, took their data and retreated to a corner and sat down for a while.. Then later came back out and got with the program. Interesting how the data has evolved.
Note that Unique is the only powder to be used in all Speer manuals.
So I assembled some ammo and went to the range. I had some Magtech 125gr. JHP's and some winchester brass. WSP primers were uses except where noted otherwise. Bullets were seated to the cannalure and crimped in.
Here is the first go-round.. It was kind of cold that day.. Southern Oregon weather is quite fickle.. We never know what we are going to get.
Well everybody grouped pretty well with the exception of 3N37, which wanted no part of this exercise.. Power Pistol at 7.0grs. was so-so.,
5.0grs of Bullseye produced the smallest ES (extreme velocity spread) of all loads tested.
Speer and Alliant both list 6.0grs of Unique as a +P load, where Lyman lists 6.0grs as a non +P load. 6.0grs matched up with the WinUSA/UMC factory loads.
It's interesting that IMR dropped 800-X from their .38 and .357 load data. That's a shame, as 800-X produced one of the best loads here, and produced the highest velocity so far. More than likely IMR's decision to drop 800-X stems around its inability to meter well in powder measures. But if one understands that each charge must be checked and/or adjusted individually, 800-X can produce some great loads. The loads I use it for, I load in smaller quantities.
Anyway, Hornady and Speer were the only ones to think enough of 800-X to include it in their data.
I took liberty with BE-86 in order to do a side by side with CFE Pistol, each shooting 6.4grs. You can see how that turned out. I'll shoot the listed load of 6.1grs. later.
Loaded up some more, this time opening the throttle a bit… and shooting the max Sierra loads, plus experiment with WSPM primers, which sometimes can settle large ES's down in cooler weather. Not the case with Unique this time.
Ken Waters in his Pets Loads says 6.5grs of Herco is max with this weight bullet. Ken actually measures case head expansion to determine pressure. So I tried that load with a WSPM primer. Herco is another powder where mag primers can help.
Ken Waters also believed 6.3grs of Unique to be max with this bullet, so I loaded that up with a WSPM primer. And then, loaded the Sierra max load of 6.7grs with a WSPM primer.
Only Lyman and IMR lists SR4756 currently, and Lyman hasn't updated their .38 Special data very much since the 46th edition. Funny that Lyman lists 6.3grs as a non +P load while IMR lists 6.1 as a +P load. So I experimented with 7.0grs. That put it right in there with everybody else.
I have found that SR4756 along with SR7625 to be very temperature sensitive. These do well in warm weather, but when it gets cold they stop performing as well, especially when pressures are held low. That might be why 4756 isn't used in other manuals for this application.
Sierra, in their data, makes no mention of pressure or any load being (+P). 9.4grs of Blue Dot really took off with the mag primer. The mag primer worked in getting the ES down with Blue Dot and N350 also.
I wanted to see if the factory powder in the Ultimate Defense load was similar to Power Pistol, so I loaded up with 6.3grs… Not quite..
Alcan 7 is a powder I've had a quantity of since the '70s, so I'm always looking for ways to use it up..
The final trip to the range included HS-6 and AA#5 that I had not tried yet. Plus another load of SR4756 and Power Pistol to see where they landed. And the Alliant listed load of 6.1grs. of BE-86.
Note that SR4756 and Power Pistol track together closely.
Here is a graph which provides a birds-eye view of the whole thing;
The loads that came closest to the advertised 945 fps from a 4" vented test barrel were;
5.8 231
6.1 BE-86
7.0 Longshot
8.5 AL-7
And the Ultimate Defense round.
So.. What should we think of all this..?
It has been my belief that the factories will do the research; blend a powder to provide the fastest, most accurate factory load, staying within a specified pressure level. In other words, if one makes a load that has a higher velocity than a factory load of the same type, then the higher velocity is achieved at the expense of excessive pressure.
If this is still true here, then only the starting loads should be considered +P loads given the factory examples.
Or… The loading manuals have it right, and the factories are playing it safe.
I can say with reasonable certainty that the max Sierra loads, 6.8grs. Unique, and 9.4grs. Blue Dot, were much hotter than any other load shot including the Ultimate Defense factory load.
Well still don't know what the answers are, but I had fun doing this anyway.. I hope it proves useful.
What did I load those empties with?.. 7.0grs. Longshot and called it good.
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I wasn't exactly shocked, but I was surely impressed. In fact, I was so impressed that I decided to drop to 6.2 grains and call that my max load. I still want to try some of the 7 grain loads in my .357, just to see what I get.
Let me say that I didn't feel that this load was dangerous, but I didn't want to go all the way to 7 grains.
