New Member & Model-60 Owner With A Couple Questions

[Rebelfan]

Hello everyone, new member and first post.

After testing a number of small revolvers my wife and I recently purchased a Model 60 with the 2 inch barrel. This will be my wifes primary concealed firearm.

Had a few of questions.

We purchased the model chambered for .357 however we plan on only shooting .38 special out of it at the range. (Even though we don't plan on shooting much, if any .357 out of this revolver, having that option seemed worth the extra $10)

Are +P ok for the range or is it better to stick with standard pressure?

Any suggestions for defensive carry ammo?

Any maintenance or cleaning tips would be appreciated.

Have read some posts about the internal locks being an issue in the comment sections on Youtube. Is this truly a big issue or something that is being blown a little out of proportion. (As most things are on the internet)


Thank you in advance for any info/opinions and feedback.

 

[Longhorn1986]

I've had a Model 60 since right after they came out in .357. +P seems like a waste of money for regular range practice. Occasionally shooting it to get used to the additional recoil is fine, but stick with regular .38 for the most part. As far as defensive ammo, if you ask 20 people, you'll likely get 20 different answers. Cleaning? Keep the bore clean, bronze brush the cylinder faces and around the forcing cone and occasionally hit it with some Rem oil.

Internal locks? Much ado about nothing.

 

[Old cop]

I agree w/the above. As to which self defense ammo to use the old FBI 158 grain +P (used it during my LEO career) has an excellent street record. Also, Speer 135 grain +P also has a good record with the NYPD. If you do a YouTube search on the topic there's lots of info out there.

 

[msauter]

Congrats on your new revolver, the Model 60 was a good choice. Stick with standard pressure .38 rounds for range use, especially if your wife may be a little sensitive to recoil. For carry use, Federal Premium sells a 110 Grain Hydra-Shok JHP Personal Defense - Low Recoil round that is an option if recoil does become an issue.

 

[Green Frog]

I agree w/the above. As to which self defense ammo to use the old FBI 158 grain +P (used it during my LEO career) has an excellent street record. Also, Speer 135 grain +P also has a good record with the NYPD. If you do a YouTube search on the topic there's lots of info out there.

Old cop,

I like what you said here but wonder, is there a current source for the old FBI load you mention? Back in about 1979 an acquaintance in the FBI gifted me with most of a box of then-current ammo with nickel plated brass and a blue "Ny-clad" HPSWC bullet. I'm down to less than 20 of them now and would love to have a couple of boxes to use for serious work in my Model 60-4 and other CCW 38s.

TIA- Froggie

 

[Young Gun]

As for the locks, they can easily be removed. I was gifted a brand new 586 with a 4" barrel and my first day at the range caused a lock up when shooting single action. (luckily I was at a range at a local store that provided gunsmithing) So I had to get some work done and had the lock removed on that particular handgun, while my new model 69 still has the lock, it has had about 500 rounds through it and no lockup.

I would just remove it and be done with it. I plan on it with my model 69.

 

[BB57]

The Model 60 is a good choice. The extra weight of the steel frame makes the recoil much more pleasant and the rubber grips on the Model 60-14 and Model 60-15 are well sized for small female hands.

Guys will probably want to get a Hogue Monogrip and if your spouse's hands are not small the Hogue might be a better option for her as well.

The standard pressure .38 load is considered a standard for law enforcement and got the job done for decades - BUT - that was in 4" length revolvers. There are not any standard pressure .38 loads that have a great track record when shot out of a 1 7/8 or 2 1/8" barrel.

That basically means you need to use a .38 +P load in a 1 7/8" or 2 1/8" barrel to regain the same level of terminal performance offered by a standard pressure .38 in a 4" barrel.

With comfortable recoil absorbing grips that also push the middle finger mostly below the trigger guard, and in a steel frame J-frame revolver, .38+P are not unpleasant to shoot. On the other hand the J-frame is something of an experts gun and it rewards plenty of practice if you want it to be effective as something other than psychological weapon. In that regard people will shoot it a lot more if they practice with standard pressure .38 special.

I suggest practicing with a standard pressure 158 gr LSWC load, particularly if you're shooting a 110, 125 or 135 gr +p defense load as the differences in recoil will be less. The lighter and faster bullets will print a couple inches lower on the target than the 158 gr load, but that won't make any difference at social shooting distances in a self defense situation.

-----

I agree the lock is a total non issue.

The only incident I had with mine was experimenting with the lock shortly after I bought my Model 60-14, locking it, apparently failing to unlock it, then going to the range and discovering it was locked while not having a key along with me.

At the time I was not 100% sure I made that mistake, or at least I was not willing to admit it as there's always a temptation to accuse the lock of locking itself rather than owning to your own mistake. However, after 3000 plus rounds total through my Model 60-14 and Model 60-15, with a significant number of +P rounds, a fair number of .357 rounds, and extensive all day daily carry, I have to say that I just don't believe that lock is ever going to just lock itself.

It's possible a shooter my screw up with the key and fail to unlock it, if they've had it locked and not notice the failure to unlock as the indicator is small, but I just don't buy the reports that they lock themselves.

-----

As noted above the Speer 135 gr Gold Dot +P load demonstrates good short barrel performance as the 125 gr +P Gold Dot.

Other good loads that will reliably expand and achieve at least 12" of penetration from a snub nose 38 are:

Winchester +p 158-grain LSWCHP
Winchester +P 125-grain SJHP
Winchester +P 125-grain Silvertip HP
Winchester +P 130-grain SXT Personal Protection
Hornady 125-grain XTP

The Hydrashock loads expand well at 2" .38 velocities as do the 129 gr Nyclad bullets which expands superbly, but they all under penetrate by 1-3 inches.

In contrast the 158 gr Nyclad bullet will slightly over penetrate as it fails to expand significantly.

----

If you hand load you have some other options with a Model 60.

The Hornady 125 gr XTP is a good choice for a marginal cartridge like the .38 Special as it has a more moderate expansion that ensures adequate penetration. You won't get the .600 to .625" expansion of the Gold Dots, you'll get expansion in the .450 to .475" range like you do with the 158 gr LSWCHP FBI load, and you'll get similar 14" penetration.

My preferred .38 +P self defense load is:
125 gr XTP with 7.5 grains of IMR 800X (.38+P maximum load, Hornady 9th edition).

It gives an average velocity of 951 fps with a Standard Deviation around 20 fps in a Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel. The velocity in a 1 7/8" Model 36 is a slightly slower 929 fps.

---

The issue of the possible legal issues of using hand loads in self defense cases is as over blown as the lock issue as there is no case that has ever resulted in a conviction due to the use of hand loads. It's either a good shoot or it's not.

The issue of hand loads did arise in one case where Massad Ayoob was called as a professional witness - but the forensics issue in that case involved hand loading in general as the wife of the accused shot her self with a target load. The police mistakenly confiscated a sample of more powerfully loaded ammo. The lack of powder burns and stippling on the deceased with the lighter load that would have occurred with the heavier load led to the erroneous conclusion that she was shot at longer range and could not have killed herself.

The moral of that case is however not "don't use hand loads for self defense" it is instead:

1. be sure to clearly label your self defense loads as your self defense loads,
2. only use loads out of that clearly marked box,
3. keep that box separate from your other ammunition where you can direct the police to the right box with no confusion, and
4. always leave a few rounds in the ox for test purposes.

That advice applies to any self defense ammo, not just hand loaded self defense ammo.

The other concerns about hand loads involve forensics for crime solving purposes as an examiner/investigator can reference a data base for commercial rounds to help determine things like the brand/round used, the published velocity, etc to help flesh out what happened at the crime scene.

That's important in solving a crime where the shooter isn't known, but it's not an issue in a self defense shoot where who did the shooting isn't in doubt and where you have a sample of ammo (see 1-4 above) that can be tested in your gun to confirm your account of events and verify the facts in the shoot.

 

[gnystrom]

As an instructor that had seen dozens of people with your same question/issues. First off you made a good choice in a firearm.

Key words, new gun+wife= need common sense.

1. Screwing with the "lock" is insanity in my opinion. Leave it alone and you will be fine.

2. Try and find some 148 gr. wadcutters to start her out with. They have little recoil and they may prevent her from flinching even worse than she will anyway.

3. Wadcutters can be used for a carry load. There are better options, but putting rounds on target is her first priority.

4. A reasonable carry load would be Speer Gold Dot 135gr. short barrel. Don't worry about the +P part. After practice, and in a SD situation, first shot recoil will be the last of her problems.

5. I have my students shoot the gun single action until they are very comfortable with the recoil. Then go home and with a UNLOADED firearm, dry fire double action until their finger is strong enough to make shooting that gun double action only is second nature.

6. I would definitely invest in a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I find women like the LG305's. That dot will definitely teach her trigger control and in a panic situation, it takes using the sights on your gun out of the equation. Their website will have great videos. Now, she can really put that dry fire practice/trigger control to good use.

7. If you plan on shooting the shorter 38 specials, make sure you thoroughly clean the chambers so you still have the option of using (not a great idea) the .357 rounds if you choose. (that will really help develop a flinch). In fact, I would clean the gun after each use to make things easier. Especially if you are using lead bullets.

8. Practice and more practice. Hopefully with another experienced shooter that can help. Las Vegas has a lot of ranges and any money you spend on instruction would be well spent.

You did good and I wish you and your wife the best. Sorry for the long post but new shooters are my passion.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'm not as detail oriented as some of the other fellas here.

Leave the lock alone, shoot whatever ammo you feel comfortable with because you ain't gonna hurt that pistol, and any name brand hollowpoint self defense ammo will do the job you need it to do, so long as you can put a couple in the ten ring when you have to.

Oh, and enjoy. That 60 is a right fine pistol . . . .

 

[Rebelfan]

Thanks to all for the quick responses and info. Good to hear that the 'lock issue' appears to have been overblown.

The Gold-Dot seems to have consistent results in gel testing. I guess the ammo 'debate' here is no different than the 'Cold Air Intake' debate on car and truck forums.

Next on the list is a 686.

 

[Bill In Texas]

Welcome to the forum! I have the 60 Pro Model with the 3" barrel.
It's my EDC most days. I like to use the Speer Short Barrel .38 Special +p's as my self defense round and shoot whatever is the cheapest practice fmj ammo I can buy in any weight, even though I prefer 158 grain if I can get it at a reasonable price.

Check all the screws on the 60 for tightness, including the screw that holds the cylinder release. If you find they loosen up to regularly, a little clear nail polish will help! Hope y'all enjoy the new gun!

 

[gwpercle]

The lock thing....I own 3 with locks and 3 without locks ,I do a lot of shooting with them, never had a lock engage itself or tie up the gun !
I have owned and carried a S&W model 637 in 38 special +P for the past ten years, I shoot it often, if I had any problems with the lock it wouldn't be in my pocket right now !

10 years shooting and carrying...never a problem.

Gary

 

[gboling]

You cannot go wrong with what your local police use. In Los Angeles it is the.38 Speer 135 grain +P.

 

[AZretired]

I taught my wife too shoot 40 years ago with my off duty weapon, a bobbed M-60 with Pachmayr Compacs on it. We used wadcutters and my wife learned well. Nowadays she prefers my M-64 snubby.
As a side note I put 100-150 rounds of Federal +P LSWCHP per year through that gun for 20 years with no issues. Traded it off for a M -640. Love the 640/642 but wish I still had a 60.

Sent from my BNTV400 using Tapatalk

 

[TAC]

As an instructor that had seen dozens of people with your same question/issues. First off you made a good choice in a firearm.

Key words, new gun+wife= need common sense.

1. Screwing with the "lock" is insanity in my opinion. Leave it alone and you will be fine.

2. Try and find some 148 gr. wadcutters to start her out with. They have little recoil and they may prevent her from flinching even worse than she will anyway.

3. Wadcutters can be used for a carry load. There are better options, but putting rounds on target is her first priority.

4. A reasonable carry load would be Speer Gold Dot 135gr. short barrel. Don't worry about the +P part. After practice, and in a SD situation, first shot recoil will be the last of her problems.

5. I have my students shoot the gun single action until they are very comfortable with the recoil. Then go home and with a UNLOADED firearm, dry fire double action until their finger is strong enough to make shooting that gun double action only is second nature.

6. I would definitely invest in a set of Crimson Trace Lasergrips. I find women like the LG305's. That dot will definitely teach her trigger control and in a panic situation, it takes using the sights on your gun out of the equation. Their website will have great videos. Now, she can really put that dry fire practice/trigger control to good use.

7. If you plan on shooting the shorter 38 specials, make sure you thoroughly clean the chambers so you still have the option of using (not a great idea) the .357 rounds if you choose. (that will really help develop a flinch). In fact, I would clean the gun after each use to make things easier. Especially if you are using lead bullets.

8. Practice and more practice. Hopefully with another experienced shooter that can help. Las Vegas has a lot of ranges and any money you spend on instruction would be well spent.

You did good and I wish you and your wife the best. Sorry for the long post but new shooters are my passion.

I agree with #1-8, with the exception of #6. Not a fan of laser grips, but that too, had been debated as much as the internal lock.

 

[gnystrom]

I agree with #1-8, with the exception of #6. Not a fan of laser grips, but that too, hads been debated as much as the internal lock.

You have to admit lasergrips are great for learning trigger control and they do have an "off" switch for the purists out there.
I once had to shoot offhand from cover with no possibility of using the gun sights. As you can see below, I learned a lot from that exercise.

 

[sherco]

I'm old. I've been shooting my whole life, including really big handguns in calibers starting with a 4.
The most painful handgun ever was a j frame with wood grips with a hot .357 load. It was nasty.

 

[rt11002003]

Nice gun! I'm also old. And, like "sherco" I've shot some nasty loads; the worst was .44 magnum. The idea is to hit what you're shooting at (and nothing else), so I tend to go with any stock loads that produce minimum recoil. Heavier projectiles with stock powder load tend to minimize recoil. Any good hollow point, expandable round is likely to do the job for SD/HD. The objective is to produce shock to stop the aggressor and keep the bullet fragments (or entire round) from hitting anything/anyone else, other than the target.

I don't have a Model 60, but do have a couple of revolvers with 4 inch barrels that handle both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. For most range practice, I shoot the .38 Special round with occasional sessions with .357 Magnum, so I know what to expect with it.

During a lot of my USAF career, the S&W .38 Special Combat Masterpiece was my duty weapon. I think it was ".38 Special", maybe just .38. That was a long time ago; I retired in 1976. The memory fades. I had a lot of trust in the gun and in the load. But, it was for close in combat use, similar to what one faces in SD/HD. For known serious situations we carried the M16 and a handgun. And, for really serious expected situations, we had a combat team and the M60.

Locks are hardly worth mentioning. Except to say, if you don't use them they're unlikely to cause a problem. A good safe is a better solution.

My best advice is to decide what you want the gun and the round to do. Select what you consider the best of both. And, practice, practice until you can handle the gun as second nature and put the rounds where you want them.

 

[ContinentalOp]

+P are fine for the range, but not really necessary for much of your range practice. I do most of my practice with standard pressure 130gr FMJ and maybe 15-20 rounds of +P. While you don't necessarily need to shoot +P every range session, it is a good idea to fire at least a few cylinder-fulls every once in a while to stay familiar with it, assuming you use +P for self-defense loads.

My first choice in self defense ammo is Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P. It has a good track record. Search around for 50-round boxes as they're much cheaper than the 20-round boxes that are available.

My second choice is Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure. From all accounts it performs the same as the "older" FBI loads. The biggest drawback is the price, but revolvers generally don't need as many rounds fired to prove reliability as semi-autos do.

Both those rounds have some kick. For lower-recoiling self defense loads I prefer Federal 125gr Nyclads, but from what I've read they may be hard to come by. If I were to pick a standard pressure self-defense load now I would probably check out Winchester's 130gr Defend JHP.

I prefer medium- to heavy-weight hollowpoint bullets for self defense (in .38 Special I would consider that as 125gr and heavier) but there are lighter loads that may work if recoil is an issue. The most important things in self defense ammo are reliability and shootability. I'd suggest trying the "good stuff," but if it doesn't work for you or your wife don't be afraid to try something else. The only loads I would recommend staying away from are the frangible loads, like Glaser Safety Slugs or MagSafe. I don't trust their lack of penetration, their extremely light weight can affect POA/POI, and I think they're too expensive for what they offer.

For maintenance tips, the resource I like is Grant Cunningham's Gun Digest Book of the Revolver. It also has lots of tips on handling and shooting revolvers. I think it's well worth the price.

Internal locks are always a contentious issue here. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that I won't use an internal lock gun for self defense. While rare, there have been documented instances of revolvers failing to fire. If my only option was to get a gun with the internal lock, I'd remove it as soon as possible. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me. You can do what you want regarding the lock.

Also, as a piece of general advice, I usually recommend Ed Lovett's book, The Snubby Revolver for owners of snub revolvers. He has lots of good advice, tips, and knowledge. The only section I disagree with him is where he recommends exotic ammo. Other than that, I think it's a great resource.

 

[oldnavynukespook]

Agree with gnystrom on all points. The Crimson Trace are excellent for training and, as we say in the Navy, when in "the jaws of extremis". Whatever helps you hit the target, especially when under stress, is o.k. in my book. Wadcutters are hard to find these days. Seems semi-wads are somewhat more plentiful. Recommend Birchwood-Casey Lead Removal cloth for cleaning up cylinder face and forcing cone. Just use scissors and cut a 1-inch square for each cleaning.