Not really. They built 1100 Maachi C.202s, with German engines, as you say, before they got out. The Folgore was the equal of the Allied planes of the early 40s.
What Is Your All Time Favorite Fighter Airplane?
- Thread starter Gulfecho
- Start date
Not really. They built 1100 Maachi C.202s, with German engines, as you say, before they got out. The Folgore was the equal of the Allied planes of the early 40s.
I thought the Eagles flew Hurricanes, (but I sure been wrong before) and the Hurricane was a tough contender.
JJEH
Member
I guess mine is the F-4 Phantom II since I grew up around them... were the big deal back then. They all have been retired now.
muddocktor
Member
Not all of Americans just fought with the Eagle squadrons. And the Eagle squadrons flew Hurricanes and then later were transitioned to Spits. Blakeslee for instance, first enrolled in the RCAF and flew Spits, then later on transferred to the Eagle squadrons.
Will Carry
Member
Have you ever heard the old saying..."The P-51 will get the girls but the P-47 will get you home."
Or 12 reasons the P-47 was better than the P-51. This is from Chuck Hawks, very cool, wed site:
"1. The Republic Thunderbolt had a radial engine that could take hits and keep on running. I know of an actual case where a Jug brought a pilot back from Borneo after 8 hours in the air. The pilot landed with the master cylinder and three other cylinders blown out of commission. But the Jug kept chugging along, running well enough to bring its pilot back safely to his base at Morotai. I was there.
2. The Jug's radial engine was air cooled, instead of liquid cooled with a radiator system, like the Mustang's V-12. This is significant because one small caliber hit on an aluminum cooling line in a Mustang would let the coolant leak out, and when the coolant was gone, the engine seized, and the show was over.
I took a small caliber hit in a coolant tube over Formosa (Taiwan). When I landed back at base, my crew chief said, "Lieutenant, did you know you got hit?" I replied, "No." He continued, "You took a small caliber shell in the coolant tube on the right side of the engine. I'd give you between 10 and 15 minutes flying time remaining." I had just flown from Formosa, over nothing but the Pacific Ocean, to our fighter strip on Okinawa.
3. The P-47 could fly higher than the P-51. With its huge turbocharger, it could climb to over 40,000 feet. You could just look down at your enemy in a stall and smile.
4. The Jug could out dive the Mustang. As a matter of fact, it could out dive any enemy fighter, and at 7.5 tons loaded, it dove fast! I have personally been in a dive at what we called the "state of compressibility," at nearly 700 mph indicated air speed. I was scared to death, but with a tiny bit of throttle, I pulled it out at about 2,000-foot altitude, literally screaming through the sky.
5. The Thunderbolt had eight .50's. The Mustang had six. That's 33 1/3% more firepower. This made a major difference.
6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself.
In addition to being a first class fighter, it was also a superb fighter-bomber and ground level strafer. Jugs practically wiped out the German and Italian railroads. I have strafed Japanese trains, troops, ships, gunboats, warships, airfields, ammo dumps, hangers, antiaircraft installations, you name it. I felt secure in my P-47.
7. The P-47 was larger and much stronger, in case of a crash landing. The Jug was built like a machined tool. Mustangs had a lot of sheet metal stamped out parts, and were more lightweight in construction. One example was the throttle arm. You can see the difference. What does all this mean? The safety of the fighter pilot.
8. The Thunderbolt had no "scoop" under the bottom. You can imagine what happens during a crash landing if your wheels would not come down (due to damage or mechanical trouble). On landing, it could make the P-51 nose over in the dirt as the scoop drags into the earth. In water (and I flew over the Pacific Ocean most of my 92 combat missions), it could cause trouble in a crash landing because the air scoop would be the first part of the aircraft to hit the water. Instead of a smooth belly landing, anything might happen.
9. The Thunderbolt had a much larger, roomier cockpit. You were comfortable in the big Jug cockpit. In my Mustang, my shoulders almost scraped the sides on the right and left. I was cramped in with all my "gear." I could not move around like I could in the P-47. I found the ability to move a little bit very desirable, especially on seven and eight hour missions.
10. The Mustang went from 1,150-horse power Allison engines to the Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that had 1,590 hp. The Thunderbolt started out with a 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney engine, and ended up with 2,800 war emergency hp with water injection. That's close to twice the power.
11. The Jug had a very wide landing gear. This made it easy to land just about anywhere, with no tendency to ground loop. Many times we had to land on rice paddies and irregular ground. When you set the Thunderbolt down, it was down. In the Far East, England, Africa, and Italy, this helped you get down and walk away from it. To me, that was very important for the safety of the pilot.
12. The Jug's record against all opposing aircraft is remarkable. The ratio of kills to losses was unmistakably a winner. Thunderbolt pilots destroyed a total of 11,874 enemy aircraft, over 9,000 trains, and 160,000 vehicles."
Number 5 is incorrect. The difference between 6 50s and 8 50s is 25% not 33%.
Number4 is incorrect too. I believe the reports of the P-47 buffeting the sound barrier in a power dive have been proven false. I would not argue that with Chuck Hawks
Or 12 reasons the P-47 was better than the P-51. This is from Chuck Hawks, very cool, wed site:
"1. The Republic Thunderbolt had a radial engine that could take hits and keep on running. I know of an actual case where a Jug brought a pilot back from Borneo after 8 hours in the air. The pilot landed with the master cylinder and three other cylinders blown out of commission. But the Jug kept chugging along, running well enough to bring its pilot back safely to his base at Morotai. I was there.
2. The Jug's radial engine was air cooled, instead of liquid cooled with a radiator system, like the Mustang's V-12. This is significant because one small caliber hit on an aluminum cooling line in a Mustang would let the coolant leak out, and when the coolant was gone, the engine seized, and the show was over.
I took a small caliber hit in a coolant tube over Formosa (Taiwan). When I landed back at base, my crew chief said, "Lieutenant, did you know you got hit?" I replied, "No." He continued, "You took a small caliber shell in the coolant tube on the right side of the engine. I'd give you between 10 and 15 minutes flying time remaining." I had just flown from Formosa, over nothing but the Pacific Ocean, to our fighter strip on Okinawa.
3. The P-47 could fly higher than the P-51. With its huge turbocharger, it could climb to over 40,000 feet. You could just look down at your enemy in a stall and smile.
4. The Jug could out dive the Mustang. As a matter of fact, it could out dive any enemy fighter, and at 7.5 tons loaded, it dove fast! I have personally been in a dive at what we called the "state of compressibility," at nearly 700 mph indicated air speed. I was scared to death, but with a tiny bit of throttle, I pulled it out at about 2,000-foot altitude, literally screaming through the sky.
5. The Thunderbolt had eight .50's. The Mustang had six. That's 33 1/3% more firepower. This made a major difference.
6. The later model Thunderbolt's could carry and deliver 2,500 pounds of bombs. (One 1,000-lb. bomb on each wing, and one 500 lb. bomb under the belly.) This was a maximum load and you had to use water injection to get airborne. But it would do this with sufficient runway. I have done this myself.
In addition to being a first class fighter, it was also a superb fighter-bomber and ground level strafer. Jugs practically wiped out the German and Italian railroads. I have strafed Japanese trains, troops, ships, gunboats, warships, airfields, ammo dumps, hangers, antiaircraft installations, you name it. I felt secure in my P-47.
7. The P-47 was larger and much stronger, in case of a crash landing. The Jug was built like a machined tool. Mustangs had a lot of sheet metal stamped out parts, and were more lightweight in construction. One example was the throttle arm. You can see the difference. What does all this mean? The safety of the fighter pilot.
8. The Thunderbolt had no "scoop" under the bottom. You can imagine what happens during a crash landing if your wheels would not come down (due to damage or mechanical trouble). On landing, it could make the P-51 nose over in the dirt as the scoop drags into the earth. In water (and I flew over the Pacific Ocean most of my 92 combat missions), it could cause trouble in a crash landing because the air scoop would be the first part of the aircraft to hit the water. Instead of a smooth belly landing, anything might happen.
9. The Thunderbolt had a much larger, roomier cockpit. You were comfortable in the big Jug cockpit. In my Mustang, my shoulders almost scraped the sides on the right and left. I was cramped in with all my "gear." I could not move around like I could in the P-47. I found the ability to move a little bit very desirable, especially on seven and eight hour missions.
10. The Mustang went from 1,150-horse power Allison engines to the Packard built Rolls-Royce Merlin engine that had 1,590 hp. The Thunderbolt started out with a 2,000 hp Pratt & Whitney engine, and ended up with 2,800 war emergency hp with water injection. That's close to twice the power.
11. The Jug had a very wide landing gear. This made it easy to land just about anywhere, with no tendency to ground loop. Many times we had to land on rice paddies and irregular ground. When you set the Thunderbolt down, it was down. In the Far East, England, Africa, and Italy, this helped you get down and walk away from it. To me, that was very important for the safety of the pilot.
12. The Jug's record against all opposing aircraft is remarkable. The ratio of kills to losses was unmistakably a winner. Thunderbolt pilots destroyed a total of 11,874 enemy aircraft, over 9,000 trains, and 160,000 vehicles."
Number 5 is incorrect. The difference between 6 50s and 8 50s is 25% not 33%.
Number4 is incorrect too. I believe the reports of the P-47 buffeting the sound barrier in a power dive have been proven false. I would not argue that with Chuck Hawks
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Cardboard_killer
Member
Eight is a 33% increase compared to something with six.
Six is a 25% decrease compared to something with eight.
Put another way, if you have two dollars and I give you a dollar did I increase your dollars by half or by a third? By half.
If you have three dollars and I steal a dollar, did I steal half your money, or just a third of your money? A third.
Hawker800
Member
The F-4's were awesome when used by the Thunderbirds. Just their massive size was impressive. Then due to the energy crises in the 1970's went to the much smaller T-38's.
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Arithmetic is such a funny language! Lots of variables!
muddocktor
Member
Same with the Blues too. I saw the Blue Angels around 1970 or so doing a show with the Phantoms. It was definitely awe-inspiring, especially since I'd seen them twice before when they used the F-11F Tiger and it was world's difference seeing them do a show in such a large aircraft as the F-4. Like the T-birds, they transitioned to a cheaper aircraft to fly after the first oil crisis. They went to the A-4 Skyhawk since the navy didn't have T-38 aircraft in their inventory.
If I'm not mistaken, the Phantom was the only aircraft that was used by both demonstration teams. And I've always had a soft spot for the Phantom too, as it is just a huge, mean looking aircraft.
the ringo kid
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Switzerland did the same--and from both sides. There were incidents where Swiss pilots flying a Messerschmidt-shot down German pilots flying the same machines.
Will Carry
Member
If you have three quarters (6 bits) and add one quarter (2 bits) that is a 25% increase. Chuck Hawks and I have been through this also.
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Cardboard_killer
Member
I respectfully disagree with Mr. Hawks.
Try the math here:
http://www.percentagecalculator.net/
or here:
http://www.skillsyouneed.com/num/percent-change.html
or here:
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/percentage-increase-calculator.htm
or here:
http://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/algebra/percent-change-calculator.php
or here's an explanatory video:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHVTYELulpQ[/ame]
Percentages are often a problem with people but if you remember that you are looking at the ratio of original value to final, then 1 given to 3 is a 33 % increase from the original, but if the recipient then gives 1 of the "now" 4 to another, then they gave away 25% of their "stash". Dave_n
Texas Star
US Veteran
Allied planes used as few as four .50s effectively, in early Mustangs. There were feeding problems, worked out with thicker wings, six guns, and a different ammo feed angle in the P-51D and later. But they felt a need to add two guns as well as to fix the ammo feed system.
The F-8F Bearcat arrived just too late for combat, but had just four .50s, so they must have figured that was adequate for Japanese aircraft. The Bearcat was intended to be light and a very fast climber, to reach kamikaze planes before they got to US fleets.
The P-38 had just four .50's, but they were in the nose, giving a concentrated cone of fire. And the P-38 had a 20mm cannon, too.
But if an enemy plane was centered in the coordinated fire of all eight guns on a Thunderbolt, that must have been devastating. Ditto in strafing missions. Like the Hawker Typhoon, the P-47 was used a lot on ground targets. But the Typhoon had four 20m cannon, more effective on armored vehicles.
I think all Wildcats that saw combat had six guns. The four-gun models were replaced before Pearl Harbor. ??
Many late Spitfires had only two .50's and two 20mm in the wings, and in the Far East, the .50's were replaced by .303's! But a 20mm shell was said to be more effective than several 50 cal. hits.
The cone of .50 cal. fire in the nose of a P-38 must have been very effective on Japanese planes, in particular.
The F-8F Bearcat arrived just too late for combat, but had just four .50s, so they must have figured that was adequate for Japanese aircraft. The Bearcat was intended to be light and a very fast climber, to reach kamikaze planes before they got to US fleets.
The P-38 had just four .50's, but they were in the nose, giving a concentrated cone of fire. And the P-38 had a 20mm cannon, too.
But if an enemy plane was centered in the coordinated fire of all eight guns on a Thunderbolt, that must have been devastating. Ditto in strafing missions. Like the Hawker Typhoon, the P-47 was used a lot on ground targets. But the Typhoon had four 20m cannon, more effective on armored vehicles.
I think all Wildcats that saw combat had six guns. The four-gun models were replaced before Pearl Harbor. ??
Many late Spitfires had only two .50's and two 20mm in the wings, and in the Far East, the .50's were replaced by .303's! But a 20mm shell was said to be more effective than several 50 cal. hits.
The cone of .50 cal. fire in the nose of a P-38 must have been very effective on Japanese planes, in particular.
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Cardboard_killer
Member
No, the four gun Wildcats were in service for the beginning of the war--cripes, the Marines were still flying F2F Buffaloes. The six gun Wildcats sacrificed rounds per gun to save weight, so some pilots did not like the change, preferring the extra rounds per gun to the extra guns.
Texas Star
US Veteran
Understood, but did the four-gun F-4's actually see combat? I think that by the time of the Coral Sea battle, all carriers had the six-gun ones. ?? I know that Buffaloes were used at Midway, with disastrous results.
Maybe the Royal Navy's early Wildcats had the four-gun armament. They were at first called Martlets (sp?) , after a kind of weasel. They were known to have taken down at least one FW-190 and FW Kurier four-engine planes. They were more rugged than Sea Hurricanes, and both helped a lot to keep German air power from Allied convoys.
Someone mentioned that the Japanese had trouble with building good liquid cooled engines, limiting production of the K-61 Hien (Tony ). Using a new radial engine on that airframe resulted in the K-100, one of the deadliest Japanese fighters. Only limited production and poor QC kept it from being a major menace to Allied aircraft. Same for the Naval fighters, George 11 and 12. The K-61 and 100 were Army planes. All of these late planes were better armed and had the positive attributes of the Zero, too.
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DevilDog72
US Veteran
cmort666
Member
The FM-2s, which were common on escort carriers towards the end of the war were four gun aircraft.
On the subject of Japanese aircraft, they had lousy gas. When flown on American avgas, the later models were often able to exceed 400mph.
Texas Star
US Veteran
The FM-2s, which were common on escort carriers towards the end of the war were four gun aircraft.
On the subject of Japanese aircraft, they had lousy gas. When flown on American avgas, the later models were often able to exceed 400mph.
I know the FM-2 was an improved F-4, with a taller rudder.
Didn't know their gas was that bad. Did know that some could reach or exceed 400MPH. Frank, Ki-100, George 12.
OP
Gulfecho
Member
My apologies for interfering with the great dialogue. The Mustang kinda renders your discussion moot as it was was overall the best escort fighter of WWII. What she offered:
TOP SPEED: 445 MPH. (486 MPH @ 30K feet)
ARMAMENT: 6-. 50cal machine guns. ENGINE: 1,790HP Rolls-Royce Packard/Merlin, V-12 radial.
RANGE: Internal tanks - 1,140 miles. W/external: 2,200 miles.
The P38 was used for escort over the vast Pacific Theater due to its range and firepower, after all, it shot down Fleet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in 1943. Quite a score card.
TOP SPEED: 445 MPH. (486 MPH @ 30K feet)
ARMAMENT: 6-. 50cal machine guns. ENGINE: 1,790HP Rolls-Royce Packard/Merlin, V-12 radial.
RANGE: Internal tanks - 1,140 miles. W/external: 2,200 miles.
The P38 was used for escort over the vast Pacific Theater due to its range and firepower, after all, it shot down Fleet Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in 1943. Quite a score card.
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