New Model Number Three questions

[NewDeparture]

I might have a chance of buying a nice New Model Number Three.

6 1/2 in. barrel, . 44 Russian. Mechanically sound w/ a very good bore, standard model with hard rubber grips. It retains most of the bluing (turned into a nice brown color).

I´m going to take a deeper look at it soon so first of all I would like to discard any chances of it being a foreign copy (I apologize for my lack of knowledge of any S&W....specially antique ones).

Based on pictures I´ve seen, some of these revolvers seem to have caliber roll marks (".44S&W CTG." on the left side of the barrel) and the "trade mark logo" on the right side of the frame.

Are these features common to all New Model Three´s, or some of them (earlier ones) might not have them?

Any suggestions about what to look for (regarding originality) will be much appreciated (e.g.: looking for proper patent roll marks on barrel rib should be another good idea, though).

NewDeparture

 

[opoefc]

New Model No. 3s came from S&W in a multitude of sizes, finishes and calibers for civilian and military uses, so it can sometimes take years of experience with them to be sure you have the real thing. Very close copies were made by Ludwig & Lowe in Berlin and the various arsenals in Russia ( Tula, etc., however those copies are as valuable as S&W made NM#3s. ) If you can post photos of any NM#3s you are considering, we can most likely tell you specifics and more about the gun. Patient dates, logos and roll marks vary depending on which variation or model of the NM#3 you have - military, civilian, target, etc. Good Luck, Ed.

 

[mmaher94087]

One item that will stay consistent will be the name and address roll marked on the barrel rib. It will say: Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Mass. There may be patent dates and the address can be on one line or two lines. Don't fall for "Smith & Wesson's Pattern"; that's a copy.

 

[rct269]

While you can most certainly get answers to most any question you may have about older S&W products right here (eventually), there's an alternative available which will likely prove to provide such information immediately.

It's a book. The title is Smith & Wesson 1857-1945. The authors are Robert J. Neal & Roy G. Jinks. Their credentials are such that it would be fair to say if it isn't in this book, it isn't worth knowing. It came to mind when barrel roll marks were mentioned. This book has an entire section on the topic----------lists the markings, essentially as they appear on the gun, and tells you what the gun is.

In spite of the fact I've had a copy for years, I continually stumble upon information I didn't know was in there----welcome surprises.

Try it-----------you'll like it.

Ralph Tremaine

And yes, some of the NM #3's have caliber roll marks---and some of them don't. And yes, generally speaking, the earlier ones don't have the marks and the later ones do. And I said "generally speaking" because there's A BUNCH of different variations of these guns I don't know the first thing about---because I never needed to know. I need to know about NM #3's with target sights, and NM #3 Targets----and I think I know about them---right up until I find out I don't. Then it's back to THE book----and the answer is there---another welcome surprise.

One of the things I still don't know (for sure and certain) is the meaning of the caliber roll mark you mention---".44 S&W CTG." That particular bit of ignorance would concern me if I was about to buy a gun, because the NM #3 was made in (at least) three different .44 calibers. One of them is a rimfire, so the hammer/firing pin should be a dead giveaway. The other two are ".44 S&W American" and ".44 S&W Russian". So a good question is what does ".44 S&W CTG." mean?

 

[gmborkovic]

A book? What are you talking about? You mean buy it, and read it and do research? Well I would have never thought of that avenue. Thanks. Best, Mike

 

[opoefc]

To further confuse some of us, there's a whole lot of knowledge about S&Ws, especially the early Model 3s that isn't in any book, that I know about. You have to learn it from older collectors that have had a S&W in their collections and wondered " what is this ?" or sometimes "What isn't this ?" An example is Joe Leiper's post today on Russian contract S&Ws. I hope Joe puts all his knowledge in a great book someday. Roy Double's early monograph on the American models opened our eyes to lots of question that we are still looking for answers, some of which Charlie Pate's monumental effort in authoring the "Smith& Wesson American Model" tome gave us better insight. Ed.

 

[mrcvs]

It is unfortunate that there isn't a book about the NM #3 in the style of something like John Kopec's "Study of the Single Action Army", Swayze's "Colt '51 Navies", or McDowell's "Colt Conversions". Anyone out there with the knowledge base to do so feel like tackling such a project?

 

[rct269]

YEAH---SORT OF

A book? What are you talking about? You mean buy it, and read it and do research? Well I would have never thought of that avenue. Thanks. Best, Mike

It's either an archaic concept, or some sort of cutting edge, "millennial" thing. As near as I can tell (which is not hardly), old far---uh somewhat senior citizens seem to be fairly familiar with it; while the seemingly younger crowd are more accustomed to (and prefer) "information technology" which functions at the speed of light----and sometimes glosses over any, and everything which requires too much memory capacity----at either end.

All I really know is I am expected to pick up and put away the pile of books which somehow accumulate in front of my chair each week before the housekeeper shows up----or else!!

RT

 

[NewDeparture]

New Model No. 3s came from S&W in a multitude of sizes, finishes and calibers for civilian and military uses, so it can sometimes take years of experience with them to be sure you have the real thing. Very close copies were made by Ludwig & Lowe in Berlin and the various arsenals in Russia ( Tula, etc., however those copies are as valuable as S&W made NM#3s. ) If you can post photos of any NM#3s you are considering, we can most likely tell you specifics and more about the gun. Patient dates, logos and roll marks vary depending on which variation or model of the NM#3 you have - military, civilian, target, etc. Good Luck, Ed.

Thanks Ed,

I believe it´s a civilian model.
No rollmarks regarding caliber nor trademark logo.
BTW, star seems to be in the white (non blued). That got me thinking of a possible replacement but I don´t know if that´s the way they are supossed to be.

I know is hard to tell with no pictures, so hopefully next week I´ll be able to take a look again and will ask for some pictures.

ND.

 

[NewDeparture]

One item that will stay consistent will be the name and address roll marked on the barrel rib. It will say: Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Mass. There may be patent dates and the address can be on one line or two lines. Don't fall for "Smith & Wesson's Pattern"; that's a copy.

Thanks Mike,

Barrel roll marks seem to be legit. Anyway, I will print a couple of pictures of proper roll marks and I´ll compare them with the ones in this revolver.

If everything matches then I guess is a good starting point.

Thank you for your help,

ND.

 

[NewDeparture]

While you can most certainly get answers to most any question you may have about older S&W products right here (eventually), there's an alternative available which will likely prove to provide such information immediately.

It's a book. The title is Smith & Wesson 1857-1945. The authors are Robert J. Neal & Roy G. Jinks. Their credentials are such that it would be fair to say if it isn't in this book, it isn't worth knowing. It came to mind when barrel roll marks were mentioned. This book has an entire section on the topic----------lists the markings, essentially as they appear on the gun, and tells you what the gun is.

In spite of the fact I've had a copy for years, I continually stumble upon information I didn't know was in there----welcome surprises.

Try it-----------you'll like it.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph,

thank you for your recommendation.

I´m aware of that book, and I´ve tried to get a copy of it, but unfortunately is not available at my country and importing one copy may be difficult (as it happens with most of the imports around here).

It is because not being able to get this kind of books easily, and the fact that I need to make a quick decision before someone else buy it,
that I´ve decided to ask knowledgeable people here.

I know my questions are somewhat vague and they denote my lack of knowledge; I ´ve already apologized for that on my first post.


p.s.

Caliber markings I´ve referred to (.44S&W Ctg.) are the ones I´ve seen on a .44 DA Model (.44 russian) of my own.
I´ve assumed (my fault) that this same roll mark might be applicable to New Model Number 3s, but -once again- I may have assumed wrong.

Thanks
N.D

 

[NewDeparture]

A book? What are you talking about? You mean buy it, and read it and do research? Well I would have never thought of that avenue. Thanks. Best, Mike

Yup, I think that´s exactly what he means.

If I was you, I would certainly follow his advise.

Unfortunately for me, this kind of books are difficult to obtain in my country.

Believe me, I know where I live and I´ve already tried that before; not that I don´t try to educate myself by reading a book, as your post seems to suggest.

Thanks anyway,

ND.

 

[Masterpiece]

Caliber markings Ive referred to (.44S&W Ctg.) are the ones I've seen on a .44 DA Model (.44 Russian) of my own.
I've assumed (my fault) that this same roll mark might be applicable to New Model Number 3's, but -once again- I may have assumed wrong.

NewDeparture,

Regarding your assumption as to the ".44 S&W CTG." Barrel Roll Mark being found on NM#3's...You are indeed correct!! This Roll Mark is generally found on the Barrels of Later Production Large-Frame .44 Top-Breaks...Both Single & Dbl-Actions!! It's also generally found on those Revolvers having a Single Line Barrel Address as has also been mentioned!!

As an aside to the above...The ".44 S&W CTG." Roll Mark has also been noted found on a few Early Production Triple-Locks...Thought you might be interested in knowing that as well!!

 

[opoefc]

NewDeparture, An extractor star in the white is correct for several NM#3 variations, so the gun you are looking at may be correct. Another clue is that if it is a S&W, the thread pitch of the screw will be S&Ws proprietary pitch and a foreign copy will usually have a metric thread pitch. The large majority of NM#3s, with no caliber markings, will be in .44S&W Russian caliber. The exceptions, with no caliber markings, are usually target models and may be in calibers from .32 S&W up to various .45 calibers like Schofield, Webley, etc. and .455 Eley, to mention a few. Where do you live that's difficult to order books? Ed.