Winchester pre 64 Model 12

[hoosier4guns]

I picked this up last month at the lgs when a fellow brought in some shotguns to sell. I've been looking for a nice older model 12..think I did ok at $425 otd. I believe the vent rib may be a Simmons. The serial number puts it at 1954. should be a good turkey shoot gun..very good shape for being 62 years old. Rich.

 

[Big Cholla]

IMHO, you did very well getting a quality Win. M 12 with the Simmons rib for that amount. I like the M 12s very much and I think you will too. That is the epitome of 2 3/4 chamber duck gun. Go try it out on a trap field to get an idea where it shoots for you.

 

[DWalt]

Problem with M12s for waterfowl hunting is the required use of steel shot. OK as long as you can use lead shot. Older Remington 870s do not have that problem.

 

[Drm50]

I shoot Win 12s, Win 97s, and Brn A-5s to hunt with. I don't think
they have made better. Won more than my share of Turkey Shoots. But, when they started making custom barrels for size
and shot load, guys with 870 & 1100 were blowing me away. It
took all the fun out of it. In fact guys buying $500 barrels just
to dominate the the shoots, ended up causing poor attendance.
People just got tired of same guys winning shoot after shoot. It
was always good old boys shooting what they had. No one was
dominating.

 

[30-30remchester]

Problem with M12s for waterfowl hunting is the required use of steel shot. OK as long as you can use lead shot. Older Remington 870s do not have that problem.

I do not understand you statement. I have limited knowledge of shotgunning. As I understand things, ANY fixed choke gun with chokes tighter than improved cylinder are subject to bulging as steel shot passes through it, since steel does not compress like lead shot does. Can you enlighten us less knowledgeable.

 

[federali]

Thanks for the Memories!

I've mentioned it before: I took my very first whitetail with a borrowed 16 gauge, Model 12, Shooting Foster slugs, in Schoharie County NY, at the age of 17, back in 1961.

I will always have a fondness for the Model 12. My story has a bit of sadness as I had to return the gun to its owner and thus, could not hold on to the gun with which I became a hunter.

If one crosses my tracks at a good price, I'l snap it up.

 

[DWalt]

I do not understand you statement. I have limited knowledge of shotgunning. As I understand things, ANY fixed choke gun with chokes tighter than improved cylinder are subject to bulging as steel shot passes through it, since steel does not compress like lead shot does. Can you enlighten us less knowledgeable.

It has to do with the barrel hardness and wear resistance. From 1963 onward, Remington's shotgun barrels used a somewhat harder and more wear-resistant steel alloy which is safe for use with steel shot. Even so, Remington recommends that their post-1962 fixed choke barrels with a full choke not be used with steel shot, nor any of their shotgun barrels made prior to 1963 having any choke. Winchester Model 12 shotguns ceased production in 1963, and all their barrels were made of similar softer steel alloys like Remington's pre-1963 barrels, so the same recommendation applies - don't use them with steel shot in any choke, especially full. As I understand it, some of the USF&WS-compliant steel shot substitutes (like Hevi-Shot) are OK with about any barrel. But those shells are much more expensive.

 

[30-30remchester]

It has to do with the barrel hardness and wear resistance. From 1963 onward, Remington's shotgun barrels used a somewhat harder and more wear-resistant steel alloy which is safe for use with steel shot. Even so, Remington recommends that their post-1962 fixed choke barrels with a full choke not be used with steel shot, nor any of their shotgun barrels made prior to 1963 having any choke. Winchester Model 12 shotguns ceased production in 1963, and all their barrels were made of similar softer steel alloys like Remington's pre-1963 barrels, so the same recommendation applies - don't use them with steel shot in any choke, especially full. As I understand it, some of the USF&WS-compliant steel shot substitutes (like Hevi-Shot) are OK with about any barrel. But those shells are much more expensive.

Very interesting. You learn something new every day on this forum. I worked with a lot of steels in my profession and each had its own properties. Winchester barrels were brute strong with lead shot though. Winchester has one of their ammunition test guns, a stock model 97, with a full choke fire over one and one quarter million rounds of ammo without a malfunction. After realizing that the old gun had so many rounds through it, they decided to pattern "Old Reliable". After that many rounds it still patterned tighter than full. But that was before steel shot. It kind of makes me snicker when the new crop of combat shotguns are only required to fire 2,000 without breakage, and many do not make it. I hunt only with model 12's and I use Bismoth shot with no ill effects on my 1939 vintage full choked gun. About a buck and a half a round though.

 

[loc n load]

Model 12

You most definitely did okay. I have a 50's vintage model 12 in 16 gauge, that an Uncle purchased. It is a plain Jane field gun. My dad bought a new Remington 16 gauge Wingmaster at the same time my Uncle purchased the model 12. I have both guns, and make a point of shooting a round of clays with them annually to commererate past times with good men. Enjoy your model 12.

 

[Ole Joe Clark]

If I could latch on to a 12 gauge and a .410 model 42, I would have all four gauges. Had my 20 gauge since 1963.

 

[DWalt]

Very interesting. You learn something new every day on this forum. I worked with a lot of steels in my profession and each had its own properties. Winchester barrels were brute strong with lead shot though. Winchester has one of their ammunition test guns, a stock model 97, with a full choke fire over one and one quarter million rounds of ammo without a malfunction. After realizing that the old gun had so many rounds through it, they decided to pattern "Old Reliable". After that many rounds it still patterned tighter than full. But that was before steel shot. It kind of makes me snicker when the new crop of combat shotguns are only required to fire 2,000 without breakage, and many do not make it. I hunt only with model 12's and I use Bismoth shot with no ill effects on my 1939 vintage full choked gun. About a buck and a half a round though.

If you happen to have or can find a copy of the Gun Digest Book of the Remington 870, it discusses the steel shot issue of the 870 barrels vs. the Model 12 barrels.

 

[2152hq]

Remington doesn't recommend steel loads through any of their bbls made before 1963.,,nor any bbl made after that if a fixed full choke.Can I use steel shot in my shotgun barrel? - Remington Arms Company, LLC

My Dad's Sportsman 48 bought new '53 or '54 has seen plenty of steel shot loads with my brother using it for the last 30yrs or so. A few scores in the bbl from the early steel loads right off, but nothing since. Polychoked and shot at the IC setting using mostly steel#2. Same for his Rem 1100. He bought it new in '63. A 12ga Mod 28". Both guns have seen extensive use and show it. That's what they're made for he says!

The Win12 was made after 1964,,called the 'Y Series',,it used some castings and stampings. It followed the general downgrading of the mfg process that collectors place on the 'pre64/post64' lable.
I don't know if those bbls are any more usable w/ steel loads than the earlier ones.

 

[da gimp]

If I could latch on to a 12 gauge and a .410 model 42, I would have all four gauges. Had my 20 gauge since 1963.

you didn't mention the toughest one to find... a 28 ga model 12... very rare, big big bucks... I doubt if 2 or 3 change hands every year or two... those who find them, keep them. Trade goods like NIB Pigeon grade model 12's or Skeet grade solid ribbed 42's, better grade Winchester 21's in small gauges etc...might tempt them into trade though.

By the way, you NEVER EVER fire steel shot thru a full choked shotgun barrel is what every gunsmith I know says.........I'm not sure I'd want to fire much of it through any of my old SXS's even if they are marked mod & imp cylinder. Too many shotgun barrels have the wrong choke marked.

 

[DWalt]

There are the newer threaded choke tubes made for use with steel shot, and those are OK. I think a steel "full" choke tube is basically the same as a lead "modified" shot tube. Or maybe even more open. Steel shot does not require a full choke barrel to get full choke patterning. I don't know for sure, as I have never fired a single steel shot shell.

 

[Drm50]

My gunsmith use to tell me the new generation of shotguns with
fixed chokes would shoot tighter and pattern better, with the
modified barrel. He said there was to much choke in to short of
a distance. He claimed this caused deformed shot and flyers.
I would probaly take that as the gospel, but he is the guy that
claims a Rem 31 is a better shotgun than a Win 12.

 

[model70hunter]

My gunsmith use to tell me the new generation of shotguns with
fixed chokes would shoot tighter and pattern better, with the
modified barrel. He said there was to much choke in to short of
a distance. He claimed this caused deformed shot and flyers.
I would probaly take that as the gospel, but he is the guy that
claims a Rem 31 is a better shotgun than a Win 12.

I agree in essence with your gunsmith on choking. I've never owned a Rem 31 but if it was better in the era it would have outsold the Win M-12.

The choke was a short one for sure. The other thing is plastic wads also create a tighter choked gun also as the orginal shells did not have cupped wads.

Also european guns were a little tighter choked too, if you are using one with wads it is going to be a tight full which does deform shot and mess with patterns.

The problem with steel shot is it is very hard and does not deform or compress like lead shot. I would not shoot steel shot out of any old fixed full choke shotgun. And yes I have seen bbl bulges on older guns from steel shot. I have read that once a bulge has happened the gun will work OK after that. But for me I am not going to bulge one nor fire it more to find out if it is ok on someones words or opinion.

For guys that shoot lots of new plastic wads the bbl and choke need to be cleaned on a regular basis, the choke needs to be "rough" to slow down the wad for better shot release. If your pattern is not what it seems try cleaning the bbl.

When I shot lots of clays I used a soft cleaning rod attached to a battery powered drill and used 4 0 steel wool instead of a brush. It worked very well. I have seen wad cleaner advertised since I've quit clays but have not tried it.

There were a lot of old name shotguns that were great for many things and did the job for lots of folks. It was really a Winchester world and there were lots of little brothers. Remington did reinvent the wheel with more modern gun manufacturing and ended up with several nice shotguns. But try trading a Rem 870 for a similar condition M-12. The difference is how much better perceived the M-12 is. Not saying the 870 is bad, it is really good. The 870 is made of stamped parts. Think of the current MIM dislike on SW products. The M-12 was all machined steel.

 

[DWalt]

"The M-12 was all machined steel."
Indeed it was, but in 1964, Winchester prostituted its model line by adopting stampings and aluminum receivers in its shotguns and some rifles, as they could not compete on price with Remington. The Model 1200 was the successor to the Model 12. However, if one could get by the differences in materials of construction, the Model 1200 was and is a superb shotgun - light weight, trouble-free, and very smooth in its action. I have owned one since the late 1960s (a skeet grade with truly beautiful wood), and for quite a long time, I was a heavy skeet shooter, less so for trap. For over five years I was putting several hundred rounds a week through that 1200, and it never failed me - it only got smoother with use. It had a 24" skeet choked barrel, but I also had a 28" full choke barrel for it, so I used it for both skeet and trap. It worked well for both. It's one gun I will not sell anytime soon. The military used a combat-grade short barrel Model 1200 for awhile in Vietnam, and I have seen a few of those also, even fired one of them some years ago. See: Winchester Model 1200 | Military Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia

 

[30-30remchester]

DEWALT, I am a milled steel fanatic and about the only thing I shoot is older hand machined guns. I have never shot a model 1200 but I have heard some glowing reports from the gun writer Peter Capstick to a dedicated bird hunter to yourself. I guess I will have to try one for myself.

 

[DWalt]

I don't remember the details, but back during the Vietnam era, late 1960s-early 70s, Winchester was franchising shooting ranges located throughout the country, I think mainly for trap and skeet. The franchisees had to stock Winchester shotguns as rentals, for use in both trap and skeet. I do know those were trap and skeet grade Model 1200s and 1400s. I believe it was not a successful business venture, and the ranges died off (although some may still be active, but not with the Winchester name). I almost went to one of those Winchester ranges to shoot sometime back in the late 1960s while visiting some relatives in western NJ, but for some reason didn't do it. Maybe someone has a better memory than mine and knows more.

 

[Texas Star]

I don't remember the details, but back during the Vietnam era, late 1960s-early 70s, Winchester was franchising shooting ranges located throughout the country, I think mainly for trap and skeet. The franchisees had to stock Winchester shotguns as rentals, for use in both trap and skeet. I do know those were trap and skeet grade Model 1200s and 1400s. I believe it was not a successful business venture, and the ranges died off (although some may still be active, but not with the Winchester name). I almost went to one of those Winchester ranges to shoot sometime back in the late 1960s while visiting some relatives in western NJ, but for some reason didn't do it. Maybe someone has a better memory than mine and knows more.

I worked for a time as a range officer at the Elm Fork Winchester range in Dallas and shot there for years. I think the city now operates it. It had rifle and pistol ranges on one side and trap and skeet ranges on the other.


We had Super-X Model 1 shotguns and M-101 over and unders for rent. They were excellent, but I could never shoot one as well as my Remington M-1100.


What about those class action lawsuits over Remington barrels that blew open? They were supposedly made of something called marraging steel. Remington had to pay out a lot of money, I think, and change their steel. A Remington spokesman later assured me that my M-870 with Light Contour barrel is safe.


The great problem with this range is that it's open to the public, without enough range officers to ensure safety. Many of these people have little or no shooting experience and would just walk downrange while others were shooting. One had to be very alert.