New Model 3 Extractor Problem

[sw44russ]

I have a New model No.3 in the low 7000s SN with the longer Extractor Housing and Toothed Extractor Cam, 1 7/16'' Cyl.

The Gun Opens normally and the Extractor lifts fine but the Gun will only open to just before where the Extractor would normally drop back in and then it just wont open any more and the Extractor stays up. Also, the Cam cannot be thumbed back to open the Gun without activating the Extractor. The Extractor lowers back down as the Gun is closed.

The extractor itself is free and can be lifted manually from where the Gun wont open anymore, which makes me think the problem is in the Hinge/Cam.....I removed the Hinge Screw in an attempt to take off the Barrel and see if the Cam has been installed incorrectly but the Pin itself did not want to slip out. Rather than force anything; I thought it was time to consult the Brains Trust and see if anyone has come across this before....

I've Lubed everything and there does not appear to be anything stuck or missing.

Anyone seen this before?

Any ideas for a Remedy?

 

[mmaher94087]

The key to your problem is the toothed extractor timing. In short, your toothed cam is installed incorrectly. Basically, it is a tooth off from where it should be. Remove the toothed cam and reinstall. You may need to 'fiddle' with the tooth location but it does and will go back together correctly. Move it a tooth to the left to start with.

The opposite problem is when the extractor won't retract fully into the cylinder.

 

[sw44russ]

That's pretty much what I figured Mike; either that or the Cam has been reinstalled backwards; if that's possible - as comparing it to other (.38) Top Breaks I have it actually looks like its in the wrong way around.

The problem I'm having now is removing the Hinge Pin; the Screw comes out easy, but the Pin itself does not want to move at all. I tried gently tapping it from the Screw side with a Drift and the blank end resting on a wood block with a hole in it to allow the pin to come out but it wont budge.

Is there a trick to getting the Pin out? I don't want to force anything and risk breaking something...

 

[mmaher94087]

Penetrating oil like Kroil is your friend. Soak the "joint pivot pin" for a day or so. Apply heat with a hair dryer and apply more penetrating oil. Replace the screw but back it out two turns and rap the screw head with a plastic mallet. The J-P pin should begin to back out slightly. Loosen the screw another turn or two and again rap the screw head to move the pin out farther. The pin can then be removed with a drift punch. When reinstalling make sure the witness marks align on the pin and frame.

 

[model3sw]

I have a New model No.3 in the low 7000s SN with the longer Extractor Housing and Toothed Extractor Cam, 1 7/16'' Cyl.

The Gun Opens normally and the Extractor lifts fine but the Gun will only open to just before where the Extractor would normally drop back in and then it just wont open any more and the Extractor stays up. Also, the Cam cannot be thumbed back to open the Gun without activating the Extractor. The Extractor lowers back down as the Gun is closed.

The extractor itself is free and can be lifted manually from where the Gun wont open anymore, which makes me think the problem is in the Hinge/Cam.....I removed the Hinge Screw in an attempt to take off the Barrel and see if the Cam has been installed incorrectly but the Pin itself did not want to slip out. Rather than force anything; I thought it was time to consult the Brains Trust and see if anyone has come across this before....

I've Lubed everything and there does not appear to be anything stuck or missing.

Anyone seen this before?

Any ideas for a Remedy?

Hi, Russ. That is the geared type, correct. (on the bottom center hinge in the middle is a toothed gear instead of a flat piece of steel with a pawl or raised barb or flat topped hook on it, correct ?

Is this gun new to you, or did you take it apart, then put it back together, upon which this problem started. Please do not be embarrassed to say which. We all had to learn, most of us ... the hard way.

If lubrication has not worked ... then you need to take a few initial steps to further diagnose.

If it worked fine before taken apart and is manifesting a geared extraction up and down (does not peak to snap back down) you very likely mis-assembled the revolver. Once the Ejector is ALL the way up, pull it by hand (pull up as far as you can then pull up and press down quickly to determining if it is still engaging the gear or just gunked. Take it apart and do it again, making sure the disc gear is in the proper engagement position.

If not, lift the latch and hold tightly, unscrew the cylinder out, and show me what you have in there for a lateral gear. On some of the very old / warn NM3s (I once had to buy a collection of 20+ model 3s to get the 4 I wanted ... which I will never do again). I found things like a threaded rod or threaded bolt with the head snipped off, replacing the geared rod.

IIRC on those old ones, the toothed disc gear, engages the internal gear until the disc gear passes to an area where there are no teeth, upon which the ejector would snap back down. Could be simply that the gear was not set properly after it had been apart as some time in the past.

PS: "Papa" Ed (Cornett) will likely be by to slap me down or congratulate me on a correct response. He usually catches these Model 3 threads quickly.

 

[sw44russ]

Thanks Sal and Mike for this invaluable help.
The Gun is new to me; I picked it up on Thursday after a lengthy wait: Import Permit Processing; Shipping and finally 2 weeks sitting in Customs. I've done nothing to it but lube the Hinge and a wipe over.

I'm going to try to insert some pics I've taken from a Photo Hosting site as they are so much better to look at here than Uploads.

https://photos.smugmug.com/New-Model-Diagnostics/i-5pJDrbF/0/M/IMG_2783-M.jpg

This will hopefully give you an idea of how the Cam has been installed.
In the Meantime; I will soak that Pin and follow your advice Mike, for disassembly.
I feel like I'm at least getting somewhere now; thanks fellas.

 

[model3sw]

Thanks Sal and Mike for this invaluable help.
The Gun is new to me; I picked it up on Thursday after a lengthy wait: Import Permit Processing; Shipping and finally 2 weeks sitting in Customs. I've done nothing to it but lube the Hinge and a wipe over.

I'm going to try to insert some pics I've taken from a Photo Hosting site as they are so much better to look at here than Uploads.

https://photos.smugmug.com/New-Model-Diagnostics/i-5pJDrbF/0/M/IMG_2783-M.jpg

This will hopefully give you an idea of how the Cam has been installed.
In the Meantime; I will soak that Pin and follow your advice Mike, for disassembly.

I feel like I'm at least getting somewhere now; thanks fellas.

Try this:

Open the gun, flip and hold the latch back all the way, unscrew the cylinder Counter-clockwise until it unscrews and can be lifted out.

You are holding the latch ALL the way back tight so it won't scratch the cylinder when you remove it ... leaving a spiral pattern on the cylinder.

Post picture of the cylinder removed from the revolver.

The cylinder should have a rod with a spring around it on the forward end.

Post a picture of the cylinder (removed) .... let's see what you have.

The spring on the the axis of the cylinder rod (of which the top is the extractor tree) is your spring tension.

 

[mmaher94087]

The toothed cam is out of time. With the revolver closed and viewing the cam, barrel and frame; the raised portion of the cam should be just ahead (and visible) of the frame bottom strap. This raised portion is the part that gets squeezed when the barrel is opened and allows for the extractor to snap back into the cylinder. Forward of the raised portion of the cam is a curved, flat area that ends with the toothed part. The toothed part starts at the dish in the frame and continues under the barrel. Pull the joint pivot pin and retime the cam and you should be good to go. If all else fails; hold the revolver closer to your monitor so that we can get a better look.

 

[sw44russ]

Ok, here's the Cylinder....

and how the Cam looks with the Gun closed up.

So, are we just a Tooth or so out, or is the Cam is all wrong?

I guess with Pivot out I'll be able to see what's going on but it looks a lot different to all my other Top Breaks with the Gun Closed.

 

[sw44russ]

Here's a couple more showing a bit more clearly where the Cam is with the Gun Closed. I'm thinking the 2nd Tooth visible should be forward and under the Barrel out of sight........

 

[mmaher94087]

Pull the cam out. There are two pieces to the cam not counting the spring. If you have a copy of Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 by Neal & Jinks; page 171 in the 1965 edition or page 184 in the 1975 (revised) edition shows the correct orientation of the cam with the barrel closed. Your revolver appears to have the cam installed several teeth out of time. With the gun closed there should be four teeth showing from the barrel to the bottom of the dished section of the frame. There is a side of a fifth tooth barely visible under the barrel. I believe your cam is 180 degrees out of time. The key is to pull the cam.

 

[Brian in SLC]

Informative thread!

Here's a view of a couple different extractor/pawls on different NM #3's:



Left to right: earlier model with rack and gear, target model (still in 44 Russian) and Frontier.

Mine function pretty well. Thanks for the knowledge here!

 

[mmaher94087]

Brian; PERFECT photo. sw44russ, The one on the LEFT!

 

[sw44russ]

Pull the cam out. There are two pieces to the cam not counting the spring. If you have a copy of Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 by Neal & Jinks; page 171 in the 1965 edition or page 184 in the 1975 (revised) edition shows the correct orientation of the cam with the barrel closed. Your revolver appears to have the cam installed several teeth out of time. With the gun closed there should be four teeth showing from the barrel to the bottom of the dished section of the frame. There is a side of a fifth tooth barely visible under the barrel. I believe your cam is 180 degrees out of time. The key is to pull the cam.

Mike, I don't have the Neal/Jinks Book (yet) but your post here will send me into the fray well armed. I've been soaking the Pin with WD-40, our local equivalent of your 'Kroil' I'd say and I'll try some gentle plastic hammer blows soon.
Thanks for the photo Brian, that gives me the perfect visual to accompany Mike's commentary.
All going well, the old girl will be ready to shoot in a day or two.
Muchas gracias to all!

 

[Brian in SLC]

Range report!

Let me know if you need any additional photos.

Cheers!

 

[mmaher94087]

sw44russ, one thing that might be adding to your joint-pivot pin problem is that the revolver appears to have been re-plated at one time. I'm guessing that the plating thickness of the J-P pin bearing surface is causing some/most of your disassembly problem. When you get the J-P pin out remove any plating from the bearing surface (hinge) before reassembly. Also keep in mind that WD-40 is NOT a lubricant. Lube with a good gun oil.

 

[sw44russ]

Disassembly was easy, assembly is proving damn near impossible!!

I've spent the most part of the Day trying to get the Pin back in and no success.

So here are a few snaps of the various parts; one thing that strikes me as odd is the 'chewing' out of the Frame where the step runs; the one nearest the Frame on the underside of the Cam. i'm yet to fathom how the Mechanism works, being completely frazzled from today's efforts has left me 75% Brain Dead, but I gather this Notch activates the whole thing and I'm not sure if it should run through the Frame or get hooked on it. The latter I'm guessing.

I've been reassembling with the Cylinder in place to keep the Drive Gear in place in the Extractor Housing, Gun Closed to match the Repositioned Cam exactly as shown in Brian's Picture. That Gear has different ends; one end is flat, the other has a raised bit in the middle; I've tried assembling with the Part both ways but it seems to make no difference. The spot where it contacts the Back of the Octagonal Shaft in the Cylinder seems to indicate the Raised Protrusion end contacts it.

Yes; the Gun has been replated. The Pin drops in fine in all Parts individually, but assembled Closed; no way. It seems like the Barrel not sitting deep enough into the Frame, the Cam lines up fine but I'm wondering if that last 'notch' that runs under the Frame is somehow fouling and holding the Frame away from the Barrel. The Gun is all matching Numbers. Oh; there is no Spring present; only the Cam and it's inner 'Bearing' that it runs on between it and the Pin. There is a Slot in the Cam which looks like a Spring Slot - nothing in it. I'm thinking this Spring loads the Cam and this is the load you feel when you thumb the Cam backwards to open the Gun without ejecting. I can get the whole thing together with the Gun 1/4 open but then the Gun Wont close. it seems to stop dead when the notch contacts the Frame. Is this normal, or due to the missing Spring?
It's looking a lot like Gunsmith Time but I am going to need Dimensions for that Spring.
Plus, I think there must be a specific way to put this all back together and in the closed position doesn't seem to be it.
My Gunsmith specialises in Antiques but he's more a Colt Man (forgive him) so the more info I have for him, the better. I suppose the possibility of obtaining a Replacement Spring is remote in the extreme?

 

[mmaher94087]

Not good news.. "That Gear has different ends". In your top photo, you are missing the Ratchet Pawl and flat leaf spring. Without those parts your revolver extractor won't work properly. They should fit where the half-round and fishhook looking gaps are in the cam. The pawl looks like an oversize Comma with a nib (bump) on its tail. Opening the revolver pinches the bump and it pivots out of the way inside the cam allowing the extractor to return into the cylinder. The cam in the photo needs to be turned over so that the large tooth aligns with the large groove in the Extractor Rack above it. The ratchet pawl is specific to the toothed extractor.

 

[Brian in SLC]

Based on the info in Chicoine's book...you're parts look off.

Looks like someone took parts from another revolver and tied to make them work?

You and my serial numbers are very close. I might be able to at least give you a look so you can see what you're up against, parts wise.

What are your options? I don't doubt that finding replacement parts, especially for these old rack and gear extraction mechanisms is near impossible. Could you get parts made?

Is there a replica revolver out there that might have parts available? I don't know of one (Uberti has the Schofield and Russian models but their extractors are pretty different). There are replacement parts for the NM Frontier that Uberti makes.

Wondering if you could change to the newer configuration of extraction? The newer mechanism supposedly swaps out with the first model Double Action S&W too, so, you'd have more options from that standpoint. Might be easier to custom fit than machining new parts?

From a custom machining standpoint, you'd probably need a new pawl and the pivoting cam with leaf spring. Not sure your rack would work (right number of threads?).

 

[model3sw]

Not good news.. "That Gear has different ends". In your top photo, you are missing the Ratchet Pawl and flat leaf spring. Without those parts your revolver extractor won't work properly. They should fit where the half-round and fishhook looking gaps are in the cam. The pawl looks like an oversize Comma with a nib (bump) on its tail. Opening the revolver pinches the bump and it pivots out of the way inside the cam allowing the extractor to return into the cylinder. The cam in the photo needs to be turned over so that the large tooth aligns with the large groove in the Extractor Rack above it. The ratchet pawl is specific to the toothed extractor.

I stayed in the background here, not to step on anyone else's words nor confuse the diagnosis.

If you email me a diagram, marking EXACTLY what you need, I will take a look in my bag of tricks ( Model 3 parts ) and the old parts guns I have.

Russ, use the email selection in my contact info. Just send me a test email so I can respond. When you send the first contact via email from the forum, I don't think you can attach anything to it. When I respond you can attach the diagram or whatever.

I see what mmaher is explaining except I'm not sure what he is describing as a "leaf spring".

I haven't had one apart in few years, Russ, but don't mind at all to help you out;

The internal rod that I described in one of my earlier responses (looks like a threaded rod but not threaded, instead with steps) looks a bit peculiar to me but OK. Looks like, perhaps, a replacement part. If it is, I'd LOVE to find out who is manufacturing replacement parts for the old Model 3 variations.