Did John Browning control the quality of his licensed designs

[bushmaster1313]

John Browning's designs were spread out over a number of manufacturers -- Winchester, Colt and Remington come to mind.

Did he retain control over the quality of the guns made from his licensed designs?

 

[Big Cholla]

I did my senior year college theme on JMB. I did a lot of research on his life, shop practices, work partners and resulting sales of designs to the various manufacturers over his lifetime. All of my research data is now gone. The best I can remember is that it is most likely to me that JMB did not retain quality control rights. The business atmosphere at that time was the big manufacturers were just that "big time manufacturers" and therefore knew what they were doing. JMB's shop was very small with few employees and rudimentary tooling. The manufacturers bought the design, drawings and a prototype firearm from JMB with both their and his knowledge that small design changes would have to be made to accommodate the tooling and manufacturing methods that were in use at the time. Also, the costs of certain hard to make parts came into question and if the manufacturers had a cheaper way to make a part with some design changes, they had the right to do so. The 'quality of production' question I believe was moot because all manufactures are in business to make sales. The quality was going to be there to satisfy demanding buyers. I do remember both JMB and his partner brother Matthew S. Browning, (the real gunsmith) were contracted with for frequent trips to the various factories during the initial production of JMB's designs to help with compromises required by production techniques being used at the time.

JMB became quite the world traveler and learned businessman. He became fluent in the French language solely to be able to deal with FN in Belgium on a more equal basis.

JMB was a brilliant designer. He would set down and design a firearm in his mind down to the last part, describe it, its parts and function to his brother using only pencil sketches. Matthew would then build the prototype. Matthew was often amazed at how well a prototype would 'work' right from the start. ..............

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Big Cholla- I think I recall reading long ago that JMB's unhappiness with the US manufacturers
was the reason he made a deal with FN.
Any validity to this ?

 

[Big Cholla]

YES

Big Cholla- I think I recall reading long ago that JMB's unhappiness with the US manufacturers
was the reason he made a deal with FN.
Any validity to this ?

JMB's long relationship with Winchester sort of choked off because they were buying the contractual exclusive rights to his designs and then not producing them. It was an early form of restraint of trade.

JMB went to Remington and offered a couple of new designs to them. They bought a 22 LR rifle, but refused a shotgun. JMB and MSB thought highly of their new autoloader shotgun and thought Remington was totally wrong in not purchasing the design. JMB went to Belgium and presented the design to FN. FN jumped on it and made a deal with JMB to be his future exclusive manufacturer. The shotgun design what was to be known as the "Auto Five", then redesigned as the "Sweet Sixteen", etc., etc. Years later Remington acknowledged their mistake by purchasing rights from FN to produce their version of that design which could have been theirs to begin with. IIRC, the story went that Remington had an in-house designer that was working on his version of an autoloader shotgun and the Remington management were convinced by him that the in-house design was just a good as JMB's. It wasn't and never was produced.

The JMB/FN relationship went on to produce the "Browing Hi-Power" handgun and the Browning 22LR Autoloader. And few other very successful designs. Someone can correct me on this; it sticks in my mind that the extremely successful line of Browning designed machine guns produced in the USA for the war efforts were produced by American producers under license by FN. There might be some exceptions to that general statement.

The BAR automatic military rifle was produced by several different manufacturers both in the USA and by FN for our armed services and others. I do not recall where the original design rights were settled. ..............

 

[Frank46]

Winchester bought the rights to the Browning/Winchester High Wall I think they offered him 20K for the rights to buy and market the design. Browning also did invent the 1892, 1894 and the 1886 Winchesters as well. Seem to remember a story about JMB sitting in the waiting room at Winchester and the president at the time had passed away due to a heart attack and obviously JMB wouldn't be able to see him. Shortly thereafter JMB went to FN with his design for the auto-5 shotgun. FN got the rights to that model. Also did the design work on the 1917 series of machine guns as well as the M2 50 caliber machine gun. Both MG's went through different designs so as to be able to be fitted in tank ball mounts in the front of the tank, aircraft and the like. Simply put the man was a genius when it came to inventing and designing firearms. The Winchester High Wall was morphed into the Winchester Low wall which it fired primarily low powered pistol cartridges, 25/20 single shot,25/20 repeater,32/20, 38/40 and 44/40. The 1886 Winchester came about because Marlin had the only lever action rifle that could fire the 45/70 cartridge. So Winchester had Browning do his magic and out came the 1886 and they had a lever action that could fire the 45/70. I do not know if JMB had anything to do with the Winchester 1895 lever action rifle that was chambered in 7.62x54r, 30/40 Krag, 303 British and 30/06.

 

[Collo Rosso]

Seem to remember a story about JMB sitting in the waiting room at Winchester and the president at the time had passed away due to a heart attack and obviously JMB wouldn't be able to see him.

He was at Remington.

 

[35Rem]

JMB's long relationship with Winchester sort of choked off because they were buying the contractual exclusive rights to his designs and then not producing them. It was an early form of restraint of trade.

JMB went to Remington and offered a couple of new designs to them. They bought a 22 LR rifle, but refused a shotgun. JMB and MSB thought highly of their new autoloader shotgun and thought Remington was totally wrong in not purchasing the design. JMB went to Belgium and presented the design to FN. FN jumped on it and made a deal with JMB to be his future exclusive manufacturer. The shotgun design what was to be known as the "Auto Five", then redesigned as the "Sweet Sixteen", etc., etc. Years later Remington acknowledged their mistake by purchasing rights from FN to produce their version of that design which could have been theirs to begin with. IIRC, the story went that Remington had an in-house designer that was working on his version of an autoloader shotgun and the Remington management were convinced by him that the in-house design was just a good as JMB's. It wasn't and never was produced.

The JMB/FN relationship went on to produce the "Browing Hi-Power" handgun and the Browning 22LR Autoloader. And few other very successful designs. Someone can correct me on this; it sticks in my mind that the extremely successful line of Browning designed machine guns produced in the USA for the war efforts were produced by American producers under license by FN. There might be some exceptions to that general statement.

The BAR automatic military rifle was produced by several different manufacturers both in the USA and by FN for our armed services and others. I do not recall where the original design rights were settled. ..............

I think you have Winchester's refusal of the Autoloading Shotgun confused with Remington.
The story is the Remington president had a heart attack while Browning was waiting to meet with him. He then took it to FN.
FN started production in 1903. Remington in 1905. Remington wanted it, it just took longer.

 

[amazingflapjack]

One thing I read that really impressed me, and I'm not a technical guy, is that there were no blue prints-his designs were line drawings!

 

[DWalt]

I imagine what JMB did was to assign patent use rights on his designs to a manufacturer in exchange for a fee or royalty or maybe both, possibly with some technical assistance arrangement thrown in. Doubtful there was anything associated with manufacturing quality control involved. In a way, analogous to a Hollywood production company buying the rights from an author to make a movie from his book. But thereafter, the author with very few exceptions has no say over how the book is adapted to the screen and exercises no creative control over the production.

 

[Big Cholla]

Not So

I think you have Winchester's refusal of the Autoloading Shotgun confused with Remington.
The story is the Remington president had a heart attack while Browning was waiting to meet with him. He then took it to FN.
FN started production in 1903. Remington in 1905. Remington wanted it, it just took longer.

Not So..... JMB never offered the design of the Auto Five to Winchester. He went to them and asked for an explanation for them not producing the firearm designs they had already purchased. The explanation didn't hold water with JMB. JMB was very disappointed in Winchester Management. He was an honorable man and thought that he was dealing with honorable men. He found that he was wrong. He started a correspondence with Remington and got some positive, some negative feedback on sketches of his offered designs. The Auto Five was one of them. They came back to JMB and offered to talk with him on certain designs but indicated that the Auto Five was not one they were interested. JMB and his partner brother were certain the Auto Five was the next "BIG" shotgun that the public would buy and buy. JMB was scheduled to meet with the Pres. of Remington to attempt a last try at selling the Auto Five to Remington. Then the well known story of the heart attack and JMB quietly left and went straight to FN. The rest is history. ....

 

[Frank46]

I stand corrected regarding Remington versus Winchester. Thanks for the correction. Frank

 

[Darkenfast]

One piece missing: JMB encountered FN agent Hart Berg in Hartford, where Berg was investigating bicycle manufacture (another FN area of interest) in 1897. Berg took the prototype .32 pistol that Browning had with him back to Belgium and by January, 1899 it was in production. Browning's first trip to Belgium (with prototype shotgun) was probably in 1902. I've always found it a bit amazing that Browning handed that prototype pistol over to Berg in Hartford and the results. It definitely was a different era!

 

[Big Cholla]

An Understatement

One piece missing: JMB encountered FN agent Hart Berg in Hartford, where Berg was investigating bicycle manufacture (another FN area of interest) in 1897. Berg took the prototype .32 pistol that Browning had with him back to Belgium and by January, 1899 it was in production. Browning's first trip to Belgium (with prototype shotgun) was probably in 1902. I've always found it a bit amazing that Browning handed that prototype pistol over to Berg in Hartford and the results. It definitely was a different era!

I know a man in Las Vegas that fancied himself as a firearms designer. Some years back, he designed a 22 LR autoloader rifle. He couldn't get anyone's interest in the USA, so he tried Australia. A firm said they were interested, please send them more complete drawings. He made the mistake of sending all but complete working drawings with no covering legal agreement. The Australian firm went into production on that rifle without ever paying him a dollar. He attempted to sue, but the costs of a long drawn out lawsuit in Australia was just too much for him. He gave up and went on about other business. ...........