Years ago I had friends on the sheriffs dept. that introduced me to S&W autos, they all had many varieties of 3rd. Gens. I have since been through many phase of guns and have come full circle and I am rediscovering S&W autos. Now for my question, am I missing something on S&W's web site? Or are the only all metal autos the 1911's/mod 41/victory? Has S&W let Glock influence them to the point that we will never see a full line of all metal S&W autos ever again?
S&W auto's
- Thread starter EBSF1911
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Yes. It costs too much to make them and they can't compete with the pricing of plastic guns. Glock is offering guns to departments for a little over $300 but it probably costs S&W more than that to make a 3rd Gen gun. CHP and West Virginia SP are the only two departments that S&W was still making them for, that I know of, & now CHP is switching to M&Ps. CHP paid $683 for the 4006TSW. THey could buy 2 M&Ps or Glock for that.
I am quoting an old post, (from here,) that if S&W was to make a 645 today, (kinda an old post,) it would cost $1,200. I know that a 645 is a 2nd Gen, but I couldn't find anything cost wise today, what a 3rd Gen would be. I was feeling kinda bad about paying + $500.00 to replace a 645 I sold years ago. Composite frames are way cheaper to produce and the monetary return is better. Sad, but that's the way it is, and will be. 
CBus660R
Member
I'm surprised S&W doesn't do some kind of limited 3rd gen production similar to what Sig does with the P220. Those sell at a price point over $1000. Obviously the market isn't there for a full run of all variations, but I think a business case could be made for a small selection that included a variant or 2 in each caliber.
Blackbarry
Member
Modern composites/plastics are wonderful materials. We shouldn't disparage them. But in a gun they trade off carry weight against "kick" when a round is fired. Once again we re-learn there is no such thing as a free lunch. However, with CNC milling there may be a market for upscale precision fabrication of a "Performance Center" all metal offering. I'm thinking Korth level of quality coming in at the $1200+/- price point.
Just a thought......
Just a thought......
The "Performance Center" as it was originally, located in an airplane hanger behind the main factory, staffed with talented gunsmiths making semi custom versions of standard production guns, no longer exists.
The 3rd gen guns wont be coming back. That much is clear. And I would surmise that were a "classic" 3rd gen pistol to be produced, it would probably pale in comparison to the original. Much like the so called "classic revolver" line.
The good news is that LNIB examples of the 3rd gen pistols are still readily available on the auction boards. While prices are steadily increasing, they can still be found for not too much money. Especially considering what you are getting.
So find which models you want to aquire and get them while the inventory is not limited and the price is not limiting. Great pistols! Regards 18DAI
The 3rd gen guns wont be coming back. That much is clear. And I would surmise that were a "classic" 3rd gen pistol to be produced, it would probably pale in comparison to the original. Much like the so called "classic revolver" line.
The good news is that LNIB examples of the 3rd gen pistols are still readily available on the auction boards. While prices are steadily increasing, they can still be found for not too much money. Especially considering what you are getting.
So find which models you want to aquire and get them while the inventory is not limited and the price is not limiting. Great pistols! Regards 18DAI
MWater
Member
I hate to jump into a topic that has been hashed out over and over again on this board, but the idea that S&W would need to sell a metal pistol at >$1k to make a profit is just ludicrous. The difference in manufacturing cost between a plastic frame and an aluminum frame is not going to be more than $50-100. Has Smith charged any of the agencies anything close to $1k for the limited production runs they've done in the past 10 years?
But the firearms market has never been more competitive than it is right now, so even $50 makes a difference. And when it comes down to it, the customers just *want* plastic right now and they *don't want* TDA, slide-mounted safeties, etc. They want 43 interchangeable grips, rails, etc.
I predict metal-frame guns will come back in fashion eventually. Maybe even TDA, but probably not. Until then, what's the point of worrying? Plenty of used guns out there.
But the firearms market has never been more competitive than it is right now, so even $50 makes a difference. And when it comes down to it, the customers just *want* plastic right now and they *don't want* TDA, slide-mounted safeties, etc. They want 43 interchangeable grips, rails, etc.
I predict metal-frame guns will come back in fashion eventually. Maybe even TDA, but probably not. Until then, what's the point of worrying? Plenty of used guns out there.
CBus660R
Member
The problem is $50-100 at the manufacturer level is $200-400 at the retail level. Everyone along the way still makes their margin, they don't cut it just because the wholesale price goes up.
JohnHL
Member
What is the difference between a "price" and a "price point"?
More digits to the left of the decimal.
John
As you can see from the comments above, you are not missing anything on the S&W website. All metal auto-pistols are mostly a thing of the past. They won't be back anytime soon. Will they never come back? That's an unknown but I am not holding my breath.
The Glock influence is universal.
It's a shame
It's a shame that they don't offer something. I would venture to say that most of the guys here have an appreciation for 1911's and once you dive into that pool you will eventually be looking over the $1000 price range. Heck after I got 3 more magazines for my 1006 I was over the $1000 mark, so I would pay that much for a new run 3rd. Gen
It's a shame that they don't offer something. I would venture to say that most of the guys here have an appreciation for 1911's and once you dive into that pool you will eventually be looking over the $1000 price range. Heck after I got 3 more magazines for my 1006 I was over the $1000 mark, so I would pay that much for a new run 3rd. Gen
CBus660R
Member
What is the difference between a "price" and a "price point"?
The way I would look at it, price point is when you pick a target MSRP and work back from that dollar figure and see if you can do it for a cost that is profitable.
When you build a product and sell it for what you have to with the MSRP being down the list of importance in the design phase, then that's just the price.
S&W revolvers have a price and it is what it is. Certain accommodations have been made to make them less expensive to manufacture through the years, but there haven't been wholesale changes to keep the price down either (the biggest issue had nothing to do with cost or retail, the infernal, I mean internal lock). Then Ruger, Taurus, etc... use S&W prices as their price point when designing and building their revolvers.
A business case for the 3rd Gen guns obviously involves looking at the existing market (Sig P220 as an example) to get the price point and working back to see if they can be built at a low enough cost to be a profitable proposition. So far they have decided they can't. Could be they view the Sig as too expensive and the target MSRP for a potential 3rd gen re-issue needs to be significantly cheaper.
Going back to my first post in this thread, I think that if S&W did a re-issue of a few models, like the 4506 and 1006, they could sell enough to make a decent profit per unit, but I doubt the case is there for anything close to the full lineup we had 20 years ago.
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If I remember correctly
If I remember correctly around 1989 when I bought my first 4506 new they were at the deep end of the pool for prices of production autos. When I got on my revolver kick around 2000 I gave over a $1000 each for two performance center 629 hunters. People will pay for good quality firearms, and they will search out someone that will provide them with what they desire. I have one Glock it's ok but it holds no special place in my heart (other than the fact that my wife bought it for my birthday) and I have had more failures with it than any of my antiquated 1911's or my 3rd. Gen. S&W's. a extractor change fixed the Glock. Now you guys have me wanting a Sig P220/10mm.
If I remember correctly around 1989 when I bought my first 4506 new they were at the deep end of the pool for prices of production autos. When I got on my revolver kick around 2000 I gave over a $1000 each for two performance center 629 hunters. People will pay for good quality firearms, and they will search out someone that will provide them with what they desire. I have one Glock it's ok but it holds no special place in my heart (other than the fact that my wife bought it for my birthday) and I have had more failures with it than any of my antiquated 1911's or my 3rd. Gen. S&W's. a extractor change fixed the Glock. Now you guys have me wanting a Sig P220/10mm.
I think there are a couple of things we need to keep in mind. Folks like us are driven mightily by nostalgia and a true passion for these small hand-operated machines. I am talking specifically about an EMOTION that ceases to exist in a for-profit corporation such as S&W.
As for "price, cost and profits", there are other angles we should discuss that we rarely seem to discuss...
First item: the bulk of cost isn't in the materials, it's in the product design, development and mostly in the equipment requires to build them. In this way, S&W -should- be working in an extremely low "cost" environment when we consider that those items already exist and are done & paid for.
However, two things S&W does not currently have is the floor space dedicated to using that equipment (or the same equipment has been repurposed for current items) and S&W greatly lacks the paid talent and experienced labor to build them.
I would say that -MANY- folks active in these pages are a better source for knowledge and experience of 1-2-3rd Gens than MOST of the people who work at S&W currently. And NO, I don't believe that is an exaggeration.
But do you know what we aren't as skilled at? Market research, high production manufacturing and service of same, large contracts and handling of same and running a for-profit corporation.
Those are what keeps the lights on at the plant. Our biggest drive in these pages are based on emotion that almost ceases to exist in Springfield. (and, well, Houlton, Maine.)
I have seen some of the new-old stock 5946 pistols offered at Cabela's and other places. I see a gleaming *NEW* S&W 3rd Gen in a gun case and with a curious "Houlton" address when I have only ever seen "Springfield" on a 3rd Gen and for a moment, my eyes light up as my brain comes to a very fast and mistaken conclusion. No, actually, they are not back.
And then I see the price... all the while knowing that I can still find many great 1-2-3rd Gens on the used market for 40-60% of the price Cabela's has on that new old stock one.
And that's a DAO that really isn't my taste.
Y'know what would be awesome? If a guy like Elon Musk bought S&W. Maybe then you might see some decisions based on dreams, ideas, love and passion (the way many of us think) and less based on corporate accounting.
Just how it occurs to me anyway.
As for "price, cost and profits", there are other angles we should discuss that we rarely seem to discuss...
First item: the bulk of cost isn't in the materials, it's in the product design, development and mostly in the equipment requires to build them. In this way, S&W -should- be working in an extremely low "cost" environment when we consider that those items already exist and are done & paid for.
However, two things S&W does not currently have is the floor space dedicated to using that equipment (or the same equipment has been repurposed for current items) and S&W greatly lacks the paid talent and experienced labor to build them.
I would say that -MANY- folks active in these pages are a better source for knowledge and experience of 1-2-3rd Gens than MOST of the people who work at S&W currently. And NO, I don't believe that is an exaggeration.
But do you know what we aren't as skilled at? Market research, high production manufacturing and service of same, large contracts and handling of same and running a for-profit corporation.
Those are what keeps the lights on at the plant. Our biggest drive in these pages are based on emotion that almost ceases to exist in Springfield. (and, well, Houlton, Maine.)
I have seen some of the new-old stock 5946 pistols offered at Cabela's and other places. I see a gleaming *NEW* S&W 3rd Gen in a gun case and with a curious "Houlton" address when I have only ever seen "Springfield" on a 3rd Gen and for a moment, my eyes light up as my brain comes to a very fast and mistaken conclusion. No, actually, they are not back.
And then I see the price... all the while knowing that I can still find many great 1-2-3rd Gens on the used market for 40-60% of the price Cabela's has on that new old stock one.
And that's a DAO that really isn't my taste.
Y'know what would be awesome? If a guy like Elon Musk bought S&W. Maybe then you might see some decisions based on dreams, ideas, love and passion (the way many of us think) and less based on corporate accounting.
Just how it occurs to me anyway.
In an email I received back from Roy Jinks, regarding a clarification of a factory letter I got, He said it perfectly.
"It is important to understand that S&W is not in the business to make collectables and their record keeping on these guns that we are collecting today are not very accurate. The more modern gun records on items we think as collectable are just a source for profit for the company."
Kinda sad, but too true.
"It is important to understand that S&W is not in the business to make collectables and their record keeping on these guns that we are collecting today are not very accurate. The more modern gun records on items we think as collectable are just a source for profit for the company."
Kinda sad, but too true.
Handguns to police agencies are what keeps the lights on at S&W for the most part. They sell some 1911s, but I'd venture that theirs aren't all the different or better than most others. They sell more than a few AR15's, but again so do a lot of other companies.
Except for the J frames, revolvers are probably not likely a high volume item either.
Which leaves semi auto pistols for LE agencies. Which means that they have to compete with Glock and Sig for the most part. All of which means that polymer frame guns are going to be the vast majority of S&W semi autos.
A lot of gun owners are not "gun people" as we are. They want one or two handguns, probably one, for personal defense. They don't know or much care about the difference between the 3rd Gen guns that we love and the M&P pistols. They do know about price, though.
Despite our best hopes, I think it's unlikely we'll ever see new production 3rd Gen guns.
That being said, it would be nice if S&W would provide support and parts for those of us who know the difference and appreciate the quality of the 3rd Gen guns.
I don't think that's too much to ask, but maybe it is.
Except for the J frames, revolvers are probably not likely a high volume item either.
Which leaves semi auto pistols for LE agencies. Which means that they have to compete with Glock and Sig for the most part. All of which means that polymer frame guns are going to be the vast majority of S&W semi autos.
A lot of gun owners are not "gun people" as we are. They want one or two handguns, probably one, for personal defense. They don't know or much care about the difference between the 3rd Gen guns that we love and the M&P pistols. They do know about price, though.
Despite our best hopes, I think it's unlikely we'll ever see new production 3rd Gen guns.
That being said, it would be nice if S&W would provide support and parts for those of us who know the difference and appreciate the quality of the 3rd Gen guns.
I don't think that's too much to ask, but maybe it is.
Great thread and enjoyed the truthful posts. Too bad manufacturing costs and final retail prices had to skyrocket so much. Guess the same can be said about many products today. Prices would ease up more slowly on many consumer goods years back but seemed to triple overnight
HOUSTON RICK
Member
If we consumers were still collectively willing to pay for 3rd gens, S&W would be willing to make them. Fact is, as a whole, we would rather buy the newer composite material guns. As posted above, buy them up while you can.
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