Police Rifles

[Texas Star]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnHxsjc2h8Y&t=1207s[/ame]


Here'a a Canadian program on whether police should have patrol rifles, training needed, and why the RCMP has dragged its heels in
getting rifles to their men.

I found it very interesting. Among other conclusions is that they deem a 9mm pistol effective to 25 yards, and a shotgun to just 20 yards. Rifles are expected to perform at 100 yards, which seems pretty short, if a suitable rifle is in good hands.

If you're in LE,do you carry a rife? What sort, and how far out are you expected to be able to use it?

Note that many local and provincial police forces in Canada have rifles, although the federal RCMP wasn't effectively getting them into use when this program was filmed.The emotional trigger to issue rifles was a deranged (?) man in Moncton (New Brunswick?) taking rifles on a killing spree. Police with only handguns were at a disadvantage and some died. Note the colorful funeral ceremony.

Bear in mind that when a killer slew Canadian Forces soldiers and invaded Parliament in Ottawa, an armed response with rifles wasn't at hand. The Sgt.-at-Arms for Parliament, a retired Mountie with a 9mm S&W, killed that invader. I think patrol rifles are a good idea. Police in Texas seem to use them a lot. I've worked with Dallas officers who got out rifles from their cars to investigate a burglary. I think it was sound. Some gunmen here a few years back did a bank holdup, I think, and police were outgunned. Since, most armed themselves with .223/5.56 mm rifles.

Some in this video seem to have awfully short barrels, as do those used by some UK armed police seen in a different video. I think a 20" barrel is about right for this need. Sniper rifles are another matter.

Finally, some officers need to be trained to shoot zoo or other dangerous animals presenting a threat to the public. These should be more powerful than typical patrol rifles.

 

[Xfuzz]

LEO from 1972 thru 2000. Major city.
From about the early 50's until around
the mid eighties many street coppers had an
old USGI 30 cal. carbine and/or a 12 ga. riot gun.

As I was retiring, a majority of the patrol/marked units
had updated to the AR platform.
Starting about 1983/84 on you had to qualify with everything
you carried. Belt/duty gun...backup/off duty...long-gun each year.

 

[coltle6920]

Here's my unqualified thoughts and opinion...

First off I would think that in some areas of the Country the citizenry is better armed than our LEO.Not a good thing if it's the bad guys that are better armed but that's probably irrelevant.

Bigger cities have SWAT teams so maybe they don't feel the need to militarize the local police.Even without specialized forces it just might not be in the budget.Heck,some departments can't supply bulletproof vests for their officers.

Seems like everything I read about either here or in gun mags says that most encounters are closeup and rarely over any great distance where a handgun or shotgun might be ineffective.

I look back at the shootout with the Boston marathon perps.Bullets were flying everywhere and the collateral damage could've been really tragic.Sounded more like a war zone to me.Probably wasn't a good idea in a highly residential area.

Probably better to have Ar15 type weaponry in the hands of a few well qualified people and not need them than to not have them and suffer tragic losses.

 

[LVSteve]

A rifle with a 20" barrel is a PITA to move in and out of a vehicle unless it's a bullpup, that's why most police forces go with 16" or less. Don't know how easy/difficult it is for departments in the US and Canada to get SBR class weapons.

I'm a little surprised that more departments don't issue pistol caliber carbines. I'm guessing that the carbines cost nearly as much as an AR these days unless you buy a Hi-Point. The Hi-Point is a good weapon, but I suspect many LEOs balk at the 10 round mags.

 

[dave1918a2]

I know some officers who put a 30-30 carbine in Their trunk when on duty. They can call SWAT if able, but a rifle can make the difference sometimes. A full AR setup is expensive and can be stolen with relative ease by the gangs. A Winchester ranger in 30-30 can also be used as a club.

 

[sigp220.45]

Before I retired I kept an MP5/10mm in a locking rack on the passenger side floorboard right in front of the seat. It was oriented upside down with the butt toward me. I kept it covered with a jacket, and could hit the hidden release and have it in hand while everyone else was still unbuckling to get an M4 out of the trunk.

That little booger was handy, held 60 rounds with two mags strapped together, and was plenty accurate out to 100 yards (and beyond). It was also death incarnate on gophers in Montana.

I miss it!

 

[JayFramer]

In many departments, the .223 carbines have all but replaces shotguns. Most consider them eminently more effective tactical weapons systems. Not sure why Canada is dragging it's feet.

 

[okiegtrider]

Poignant documentary for sure. Reminds me that big changes in policing, both good ones and bad, often only come in the wake of tragedy.

Here in rural Oklahoma patrol rifles are now very common and found in the hands of cops in agencies big and very small.

It wasn't always the case. The trend toward outfitting officers with a rifle began with a tragedy of our own. I remember this one vividly, as it occurred only a few miles from where I live, and cost the lives of three Oklahoma Troopers in the same day. May 26, 1978 ... The darkest day in Oklahoma Highway Patrol History That terrible incident was ended with an AR-15 rifle that was privately purchased by a local Trooper. It wasn't long after that our Oklahoma Troopers were equipped with Ruger Mini-14's with folding stocks. Some time down the road those Rugers were retired and replaced with AR type rifles. Like in many places, other smaller agencies followed suit.

Here in the town of about 15,000 where I live, our local PD equips each of it's officers with AR-15 rifles.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

In Columbus, Ohio; They went to every sergeant's car having an AR-15 or M-16 and at least one other cruiser per precinct with an AR-15 back in the 90's. Shot gun's are still thought and qualified with at the academy, and the department has 1 870 riot gun per uniformed officer, with a bus loaded with 400 870's and several thousand rounds of ammo, along with other riot gear.

When the SWAT was started up, they used hand gun of choice and a M-I Carbine, the sniper rifles were Remington 700 BDL's in 30-06. These were very effective but not sexy! They went to Styr 308's and M-4 carbines. Very Sexy, Very expensive, no real gain in performance!

In 2005 a SWAT situation happened on the next street from my apartment complex. I witnessed a SWAT officer in full combat gear walk down a sidewalk, and drop the bolt on his M-4 while it was aimed at a crowd of on lookers! Gun safety needs taught as much as marksmanship!

I noticed that all the Columbus officers that had Army and Marine Service didn't have trouble qualifying! and I never noticed them having ND's either!

Just some food for thought!

Ivan

 

[JamesArthur60]

I watched the entire video and was shocked at how poorly equipped the responding patrol officers were regarding their their ability to meet and match the armed suspect. They basically responded to a mobile sniper armed with an AR (apparently in Canada it's called a carbine) who knew the area and had a plan of attack. They rolled into his preplanned kill zone with nothing more than a 9mm duty auto. I thought Canada's RCMP were an elite, modern, well trained, well armed, police agency. No way! Apparently they are more concerned with PC. A sad day that hopefully will not be repeated.

 

[A10]

During my time troopers were issued shotguns. Sergeants were issued Winchester 94s in 30-30. Everyone still carried 6 inch Model 28s except motorcycle troops, who had 4 inch 66s.

A 6" 28 will raise hell on a coyote at 100 yards....

 

[armorer951]

When I was in uniform division back in the 70's and early 80's the Remington 870 was king.
My son works uniform now and considers his sidearm, a Glock 21, the "back up gun" to his AR.

 

[LVSteve]

They basically responded to a mobile sniper armed with an AR (apparently in Canada it's called a carbine) who knew the area and had a plan of attack.

Shorter than an Enfield No.4, lighter than a No.4, smaller round than a No4 makes it a carbine in Canada.

 

[DWalt]

"From about the early 50's until around the mid eighties many street coppers had an old USGI 30 cal. carbine and/or a 12 ga. riot gun."

I have never been a cop, nor have I ever been shot at. But if I were, I'd think that the .30 M1 Carbine would be the rifle I'd choose. Of course loaded with expanding bullets. Light, short, accurate enough, and powerful enough. I'm not much of an admirer of ARs. Back when I was a kid, I seem to remember the Ohio State Highway Patrol had Winchester 1907s (.351) in their car trunks. I saw some of them. Probably not a bad choice for the time.

 

[jbull380]

Departments are getting completely away from
the shotgun and transitioning to the AR platform rifle. More firepower, less recoil, greater effective range and about the same cost as an 870P. It is also blind to soft body armor. We are switching to SBRs (11.5" bbls) which makes getting in and out vehicle much easier/safer and more suitable in close quarters. We qualify at 100 yards and in an must score an 80%. Any thing off of the target image is a DQ(agency policy). CLEET (Oklahoma's LE regulating and training body) only does dummy round orientations with long guns now at their academies leaving the decision for further training on long guns to the agency. Our department will continue training and qualifying on the shotgun but will now take a back seat to the rifle.

 

[Kiwi cop]

When I was in uniform division back in the 70's and early 80's the Remington 870 was king.
My son works uniform now and considers his sidearm, a Glock 21, the "back up gun" to his AR.

This is the official NZ Police policy. Primary weapon for armed response is an M4 Bushmaster with a red dot sight carried on a sling. It is housed in a "sliding drawer" cabinet fitted in the boot (trunk) of the car. A spare mag is in a holder attached to the sliding buttstock.

Backup is the G17. It usually sits in a slide-on holster in a steel box in the passengers footwell along with a spare mag. It is a bit hard to access while driving but not so bad when patrolling 2 up. The holster slides and locks onto a backing plate that every officer has on his duty belt.

All sworn staff have just been issued with a mag pouch for their duty belts, and as of 1st July this year no front line unit can be deployed without firearms.

We have had a "tasers must be worn on duty where available at all times outside a station" policy for about 3 years now. Like firearms we cannot deploy without the taser since 1 July. As a result the whole country has had to purchase double the firearms/taser inventory over the last 18 months.

But they haven't yet answered the question my brother and I (we share a patrol car) have asked. How the hell do we comply with this policy on the days where we are doubled up for the hour it takes us at the start and end of our shifts to pick up/drop off a second car if we have only the one set between us?

 

[BB57]

M16s and AR-15 patrol rifles and carbines have been around a long time.

When the 1208 program first appeared in 1990, surplus M16A1s were acquired by many police departments and that still continues today with the LESO program (which succeeded the 1033 program, which succeeded the 1208 program). The major difference today is that you might get an M16A1, an M16A2 or one of the M4 variants based on whatever they are shipping at the moment.

Police departments sometimes install semi-auto parts in them, while others leave them as select fire weapons.

Our department acquired M16A1s to augment the Colt SP1s it already had. They didn't shorten them, which prevented them from being stored in a weapons rack in a patrol car, but they eventually swapped out the upper halves for M4 uppers an added collapsible carbine stocks.

Some departments back in the day shortened the A1s and A2s by trimming the barrel back just ahead of the FSB and then re-threading it for the flash hider. The idea after all was to obtain patrol rifles without spending significant money doing it. These shortened rifles would then fit in a weapons rack, rather than having to be stored in the trunk.

----

As an aside, I bought a Springfield NM M1A from the county sheriff in the late 1980s. He'd decided it was a bit much for a patrol carbine.

 

[spdguns]

Yes, been a cop for 30 years so far. In 1999 I was on the tac team and we were issued Colt A3 Tactical Carbines and trained up for Y2K. Yes, that's 1999...... No optic.

I train with it and can easily hit a man sized target at 500 yards. If he's holding still.....

Fast forward to 2009, I was involved in an OIS. I had an Aimpoint COMP M2 that I had bought out of my own pocket on my gun. During the gunfight, I was the only one with an optic, but from my position, I couldn't see the bad guy. Two other officers on scene could see the bad guy, but they didn't have an optic and it was too dark to see their sights so they were unable to engage him.

After the shooting, the Chief at the time came up with the money to get the whole PD Aimpoints. I think he sold a kidney or something to get them, he was that kind of guy. We got them within a month.

 

[spdguns]

Departments are getting completely away from
the shotgun and transitioning to the AR platform rifle. More firepower, less recoil, greater effective range and about the same cost as an 870P. It is also blind to soft body armor. We are switching to SBRs (11.5" bbls) which makes getting in and out vehicle much easier/safer and more suitable in close quarters. We qualify at 100 yards and in an must score an 80%. Any thing off of the target image is a DQ(agency policy). CLEET (Oklahoma's LE regulating and training body) only does dummy round orientations with long guns now at their academies leaving the decision for further training on long guns to the agency. Our department will continue training and qualifying on the shotgun but will now take a back seat to the rifle.

Yup, we sold off our 870's several years ago.

 

[Faulkner]

Officers in my neck of the woods have either a rifle or shotgun and most, including myself, have both in our patrol cars. I've always been of the mind that if things are bad enough to bring the rifle to bare I want enough ammo and distance to keep things at bay for at least 75 to 100 yards so I can hold out until backup and SRT get there.

My department issued M1 carbines to deputies from the early 90's to about 2005. Most started transitioning to the .223/AR platform by then. I am very fond of the M1 carbine for a patrol rifle and think the .30 carbine ammo with jacketed soft/hollow points are a very effective round.

As we phased out the M1 carbines I decided to go with the Ruger PC4 police carbine in .40 S&W, one reason being ammo compatibility with my Glock 23. I find it to be very reliable and plenty accurate to 100 yards. If the situation requires shots more than a hundred yards in most LE situations it's time for the SRT snipers anyway.